5 February 2009

McCann Case: Russell James O’Brien Rogatory Interview Part III-B


1578
“When did you see Kate and Gerald on Thursday May the third, two thousand and seven”?
Reply
“Erm well we didn’t see them at, at breakfast me and, me and Matt had gone up to the Millennium for breakfast and we were, we were running a little bit late, it was relatively late, erm I dropped Ella off, slightly later at the kids club, so I didn’t see them at the drop off there, I think the, the first time that morning I saw Kate first, erm and that was at, after the, after they’d had a tennis, had a tennis game, I’d gone back with Evie who didn’t go into the club that morning, we’d stayed in the flat, I’d gone back out to the, the tennis area with Evie, as they, well watched, maybe watched the end of the lesson, they all came off and we had this conversation with the, the man who erm, he was the holidaymaker who felt very awkward taking pictures of his kids, you know, obviously come back out to have a lesson after the, the adults had finished their lesson, so she was certainly there then and we were stood out there for, you know a reasonable amount of time, I think then when all the children came back up, I think we saw Madeleine and err, and Sean and Amelie and Gerry and Kate, so over lunch time, I don’t think I saw Gerry again until we played tennis later on, cos we were down, you know Matt went sailing, we were down at the beach, err but we did see Kate on her run as I described earlier, so around five o’clock or whatever, it would probably be just after five o’clock, when Ella, when I’d come back down with Ella, erm, err Kate ran along the beach and went right up to the other end and, and I don’t remember seeing (inaudible).  Then the next time, I say, I saw Gerry was, he was playing tennis when we got back you know, shortly after six o’clock, er don’t think I recall seeing, I think, I think you know the, Kate had already gone, was already in the flat then, it was, it was just the men playing tennis anyway, er and then the next time I saw the pair of them together was when I arrived at the table at quarter to nine”.
00.54.03
1578
“The next question, it fits in quite nicely, what time did you arrive at the Tapas Restaurant on May the third, quarter to nine”?
Reply
“I’m sure it was the first question in this section but obviously, oh no it was the other, that was the Portuguese yeah”.
1578
“It’s the other section yes.  Who was already there at the table”?
Reply
“Err as I’ve said in, in, apart from err poor old Dave, Dave and Fi and Diane always last, err everyone else was there”.
00.54.30
1578
“And what were Kate and Gerry doing when you arrived”?
Reply
“Nothing spe, maybe just, I think they were just sat there, erm and yeah there was nothing particularly special about it, I say there was no food at this point, they may have had a drink, I don’t absolutely recall but we just, but the only bits I recall was it was perfectly normal, they were behaving entirely normally and we had a conversation about how crap the PAYNE’s were, which is not, this is the first of ma, well it wasn’t the last and it certainly wasn’t the first”.
1578
“The next question is, did you talk with Kate and Gerald”?
Reply
“Yeah, yeah I mean I don’t remember any of our conversations specifically at that point, erm the, we, we, we spoke about, about that, I suppose given, we hadn’t seen Kate and Gerry, I think there was also some talk about Matt’s, Matt’s brush with the err, with the Atlantic, erm you know, so you know there was, there was good humour, you know, this was the by far the kind of, the brightest sunniest and probably happiest day of the holiday, you know everyone had had a, a very, very good day”.
1578
“How were they behaving”?
Reply
“Absolutely normal, erm you know, there was no, there was no suggestion that anything untoward had happened and they were concealing it, there’s you know I, I just find it staggering that anyone could believe that, that something tragic could have happened in the room and that a pair of highly able, highly qualified Doctors would rather cover it up, just dispose of any evidence and then swimmingly come down to dinner, you know particularly when, if there, if there had been an accident or something terrible, they’ve got four other Consultants or Senior Doctors within a, you know, you know on the tennis courts or within a short shout so you know we, so much has got lost over, over time, I think you know, it is ridi, it just seems senseless you know someone involved in, you know that it was there, that four families go on, have a great holiday, show no, no signs of abnormal behaviour, err and then rather than intervene and try and save Madeleine if she’d become injured, or, or at least raise the alarm, Emergency Services, mouth to mouth, blah, blah, blah, that, that either Kate and Gerry alone or by implication with help from anyone else would, would opt to, to go into some you know amazing cover up and I think that’s just got lost, I think that’s got lost in the whole thing, sorry anyway”.
00:57:31
1578
“Let’s not forget these are Gerry and Kate’s questions.”
Reply
“Gerry yeah, yeah sure. No, but they were behaving entirely normally. There was no, they could not have been acting as they were knowing that they had, that they had either inadvertently or intentionally harmed Madeleine and then disposed of the, disposed of her, or were going back to do that later.”
1578
“Who left the table during the meal and why?”
Reply
“Err like I say this had all been said before but in summary, Matt had gone back to try and get err the PAYNE’S, the PAYNE WEBSTER’S to hurry on down and he’d also done a brief check of the rooms err from the outside. Err although I don’t particularly remember him actually getting up and going, Gerry was away from the table for a period of time. Err Jane did our first check err I think about sort of quarter past, about quarter past nine then me and Matt went away err I stayed off there, I obviously can’t comment on what happened whilst we was away but I’m not aware of anyone else did any further checks, no one looked in on me in the flat put it that way, until Jane came back. Err then I went back and I think the other, next, next recollection really is not so much of Kate getting up but certainly Kate being away and then, and then coming back raising the alarm.”
00:59:03
1578
“Next question, did you see Gerald leaving the table during the meal?”
Reply
“Err I think I was, I was merely conscious that he’d been away, I don’t know if I can particularly say I remember him going right its time for a check or anything. He, I can picture him doing that but that might have been on any night that week, you know, I picture him standing and looking at his watch saying right I’m off, I’m gonna go and check but that could’ve been on any, any check that he’d at any day of the week.”
1578
“What time?”
Reply
“Well as I say I wasn’t, I wasn’t just sure, I wasn’t necessarily startlingly aware that he’d got up specifically there but you know from the time line you know its slightly second hand so maybe its best I just sort of say I was aware that he was away, rather than I’m aware of a particular moment in time. But it would have been shortly, not that long err you know, not a great deal of time after Matt and everyone else was at the table but before Jane had gone, which was at quarter past, ten past nine I’d say.”
1578
“How long was he absent?”
Reply
“Well, again, he was away, he was away for a, a good number of minutes, so more, more, more than five, probably less than ten.”
1578
"What did Gerald say when he came back?”
Reply
"I don’t remember, I’d imagine, I can’t really, I shouldn’t really just imagine really should I, I don’t recall anything, I mean most people just came back and there was usually a nod to their other half that everything was fine, you know, no problems or a report to the table but I specifically remember him coming back and telling everyone that everything was fine but…”
01:00:40
1578
"Was he behaving or acting differently when he returned?”
Reply
"No, just plain old fashioned Gerry. No change whatsoever.”
1578
"And the same format of question is, is replicated for others, and firstly did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal?”
Reply
"Err yes as described.”
1578
"At what time?”
Reply
"About quarter past nine.”
1578
"How long was she absent for?”
Reply
"Just a matter of a couple of minutes really, only the time that it would take you to have got to the apartments and back, not long at all.”
1578
"What did Jane say when she came back?”
Reply
"Err I said the other day, I mean I, she didn’t, she didn’t make anything, I don’t recall any, any special comment you know in respect of what she may have seen. She didn’t, she didn’t come back and say I’ve just seen someone odd or anything like that, there was no comment like that. Normally when people come back it was usually just sort of said it you know everything, or they all quiet, yeah, fine, great. Err I don’t recall any, anything other than things like that. She wouldn’t have just sat down, she would have come back and said you know, its all quiet.”
1578
"Was she behaving or acting differently when she returned?”
Reply
"No she was absolutely normal.”
1578
"Did you see Matthew leave the table during the meal?”
Reply
"Err yeah, obviously he left at, he left to try and get the PAYNE’S but…”
1578
"At what time?”
Reply
"I think It would have been around the nine o’ clock mark. And yes he was behaving normally, err I don’t recall any particular things he said when he came back, err…”
1578
"How long was he absent for?”
Reply
"Just a matter of again, the same sort of as Jane, just enough time really just to do a quick, a quick kind of check err you know two or three, three or four minutes, something like that, no more than that.”
01:02:35
1578
"And then obviously there was the time with yourself.”
Reply
"Oh yes, and then we left the table together.”
1578
"Did you see Kate leaving the table during the meal?”
Reply
"Err I can remember Kate being away, I don’t, I can’t picture the moment of her standing up.”
1578
"At what time?”
Reply
"It would have been approximately just before ten because we did have the reference of someone asking what sort of time it was err and Rachael announcing the time to the table, she may have been the only one.”
1578
"How long was she absent for?”
Reply
"Err well it, as I say, it’s hard with not, with not kind of knowing the way, but clearly if she was away she was away for a number of minutes if I, I mean I can, I can recall her not being there for a little while and obviously that’s fairly, fairly obvious considering that the moment of her return is when it all kicked off so I, she was gone at least several, at least several minutes, you know and err that’s, that can be fairly you know sure of her absence more because clearly her return was so you know was so, you know so, so important to everything err...”
01:03:53
1578
"All we need in there.”
Reply
"Sure.”
1578
"What did Kate say when she came back?”
Reply
"Err I don’t recall the individual words as well as I think we’ve said on Tuesday and today, I can only really remember, remember the meaning and that was that, that Madeleine’s gone err I know there’s been a lot said about other things. That’s, that’s the only words I heard. I was deep in, deep in tucking through my, my food and I think other people were probably sat back and relaxing a bit more whereas I was actually eating at the time and the only, the only kind of really feeling I got from it all was you know Madeleine’s, you know, that she’s, you know she’s gone, Madeleine’s gone. Err but what the words were rather than the meaning I don’t know.”
1578
"How did she look?”
Reply
"Err pretty ghastly, you know, at this, this point just very, very, you know just extremely concerned you know and she shouted you know sort of very loudly into the distance, it’s hard to tell but you just knew that she was, she was you know very, very concerned about something.”
1578
"What was her behaviour like?”
Reply
"Err well initially, I say initially we just got a shout and, and everyone sort of swept up there err and I didn’t go in with her at the time, there was obviously panic, it was totally appropriate to the situation you know there was a sense of haste and she was, she was going straight back up there with everyone else err in terms of behaviour I can only describe really what happened perhaps over a longer period of time and that she went from you know happy Kate MCCANN sat at the table, laughing and joking and enjoying the evening like everyone, like every, like the rest of us were err through you know obvious concern I don’t remember, whereas I didn’t go in the flat straight away but you know a period of time later, afterwards, just hearing these sort of unearthly pangs of despair coming, I mean shouted out and err and absolutely kind of (inaudible) just hysterical with, with, with pain and anguish err and err you know the, it was a second hand thing you know that she was, you know apparently, I mean I wasn’t, I didn’t see this, but you know apparently on the floor she kind of drew, drew her own blood through bruised, you know her hands were just, you know absolutely, so, so distraught. Err in my opinion, you know, if this was, if there was any foul play bestowed on them, this was the, the, the most powerful Oscar winning act you have ever seen. There was no, there was no way I could imagine anyone could, could hide the fear they must have had if something had already happened and, and then, and, and, and display this, this degree, this degree of anguish without being the most accomplished of, of, and cynical of actors, you know this was unimaginable. I mean I’ve told patients they are dying I’ve told relatives they’ve, you know people have died, you know I’ve seen lots of people very, very angry, you know, you know very, very upset, very, very quickly and really broken and this was, this was as bad as any of them I’ve ever seen or heard. Err you know and the same for Gerry, not, not just in these moments but over the, over the coming, over the coming days, I’ve never ever witnessed such unimaginable grief.”
01:07:32
1578
"Okay. Were you shocked by her words?”
Reply
"Well, again, what she shouted at the, at the doors I only, I’ve only ever taken a meaning from that as I said, so I don’t know, not shocked by, well I’m shocked by the words yes that Madeleine was missing. Err and although I can’t remember it you know because it was part of these you know shrieks, and certainly the second hand comments from the other members of the group who heard what she said and what she said to people around her you know, there was every you know hell, god, damn and shit in there you know she swore but was I shocked, no I think this was an absolute normal reaction to what had happened, I don’t think there was any, you know, for Kate and Gerry there was nothing abnormal or suspicious in the way that they, that they reacted to this.”
01:08:24
1578
"What did you do?”
Reply
"Err well I think that’s an open question is roughly kind of says what we’ve already discussed before I presume, err at the foot of the stairs I think we had flat, initial searches as discussed before. Err I don’t know is it worth going over that in any more detail?”
1578
"I don’t think so, I think…”
Reply
"I presume it means what did I do right at the time, I went to the foot of the steps, didn’t go in initially, obviously did a quick boundary search and then progressively did more as we’ve spoken.”
1578
"Yes. The first question is, did you get inside the MCCANN’S holiday apartment? Did you get inside the bedroom where the children were sleeping? Can you describe what you saw?”
Reply
"Yeah.”
1578
"Did you see the twins? Did you notice anything unusual about them?”
Reply
"No, okay. Can I go through those in each in turn?”
1578
"Yeah course you can yeah.”
Reply
"So…”
1578
"Did you get inside the holiday apartment?”
01:09:17
Reply
"I’d been in, I’d been in their apartment twice, I think before, I don’t know on tape at least, but err I went, I did a visual check of the children on the Sunday night, entered through the patio door so I’d been in through that part of the door err that part of the building. Err I think until, actually until the night itself I don’t think I’d actually gone into their apartment again, err if there were lunches and things like that they were generally done in, in one of the other apartments, particularly Kate and, err Dave and Fi’s because it was so much bigger. The err, on the night I didn’t get into the apartment until quite late, I certainly went, when I saw Gerry on the patio as I described earlier on, I think at point I actually did, I actually did see Kate as well but at this point I think we both, you know we were both kind of just in a heap really. Err and then I entered the apartment later on when the P and J arrived, sat at the desk and just, just like inside from the kitchen, between the kitchen and the sitting area. Err in terms of entering the bedroom, I don’t, I don’t think I ever actually went into the bedroom on the Sunday night, I’d kind of gone into the door frame you know and just looked, looked in like that. Err the, the, the twins I think when I was sat in the apartment were still in the room asleep err I mean I think a lot’s been said about you know did they manage to, did they sleep through something, you know, that they couldn’t, you know couldn’t have slept through. I mean my own, my own daughter slept through the fireworks at Kate and, at err Dave and Fi’s wedding so I think children can sleep through a lot more than, than you think if they’re deep asleep. I don’t remember particularly sort of seeing them earlier on in the apartment, in the apartment. I think my, my first recollection is when they were, they’d been moved err into the five H apartment later on err and they were, they were sleepy but it was the middle of the night and then at some stage they were awake and I think sitting on, on err people’s knees, on Kate and Gerry’s knees, but I don’t, yes they, they were asleep for the period of time that I was around. I don’t remember them crying.”
01:11:31
1578
"Did you notice anything unusual about them?”
Reply
"I’m trying to think until late, I don’t think I actually saw them within the room itself, or certainly if it was, it was a flee, a fleeting glimpse when we were, when I was in there. Err no, I don’t think so, when they were upstairs later on it was a nice quiet  apartment, they were either asleep or I think later on they’d were having s cuddle from, from various people.”
1578
"What did you do next?”
Reply
"Err I presume this is all sort of covered really I mean…”
1578
"Did you take part in the subsequent searches?”
Reply
"Err…”
1578
"Who was you with? Sorry who was with you?”
Reply
"Well yes and as I’ve said before, of all you know, there were people around searching for the most part there was, they were, they were on my own, there was a period of searching with Dave and, Dave and Matt.”
01:12:26
1578
"On realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes, how did Kate react?”
Reply
"I think I’ve already discussed this, I mean although I wasn’t there for the whole of that, that early period whenever you were back from outside you know she was well I can certainly recall hearing her on occasions and when I later saw her she was in, in a you know in a terrible state, an absolute terrible state.”
1578
"And again, the same question for Gerald.”
Reply
"Err I can honestly say that I would never ever have expected to see Gerry in that state, so I’d imagine if his, you know if a relative had died err you know he’s not, he’s not, he’s not some kind of cold, cold, big cold heart, but I’d imagine he would, he’s a rational, you know he rationalises things, he says you know she was eighty you know she was (inaudible) she smoked or something, he, he would be upset but he would accept, he would accept it as being a normal part of things, I’ve never seen anything like it, I would never expect to see Gerry like he was. He was, he was err distraught beyond any, any kind of measure.”
01:13:39
1578
"What is your opinion about their behaviour, taking into account Madeleine had gone missing?”
Reply
"Yeah, as far as I’m concerned they behaved exactly as you would expect err on the night, unimaginable anguish and grief, err and there’s been a lot made of (inaudible) as I said on Tuesday there’s a lot made of, you know did they behave in the right way, they didn’t cry enough on camera, they were too you know they didn’t say this, they didn’t do that, they didn’t do that. I mean my gut feeling is you know who the fuck is someone else to say how they should have done this, I’m sorry for swearing but you know, how are you supposed to react after this. They were absolutely distraught on the night, they could, they could barely think for the next, you know the next day, the next day they were in a terrible state. They started to you know pick themselves up with, with some help from you know from, hopefully support from friends and family but also some professional help from you know a crisis counsellor as well and they, this was a such a horrible experience, it was horrible enough and it wasn’t my daughter, that I think you know they, you know they only had, as I said earlier on, they only had two options, they either continued to grieve like they were in the those first couple of days and die, and I’m not, it sounds kind of dramatic, but you cannot live, you can’t live like that.”
1578
"No.”
Reply
"I mean that is, that is what, that is what truly makes people just say, fuck this for a game of soldiers I’m out of here, err or you, or you change your mind set and try and be positive and try and do something active and the, you know the grief they have received because they have actually tried, they tried to do something positive and they tried to you know to take something that was both beneficial for Madeleine and also to some extent for themselves, because if they could have sat in the room all day they wouldn’t, Madeleine I don’t think would be alive if that was the case, and so I think that their critics are, are sanctimonious and you know without, without hitting err because I don’t think anyone really knows how you would react to this and I think they you know hats off to them, they, they were, they were trodden into the ground and they got up and they did something positive. I don’t think I’d have been able to go through, to do what they’ve done err I don’t, you know I think I would’ve been destroyed right from the outset and never have, never have recovered.”
01:16:15
1578
"Okay. What did you do from ten thirty p.m. in the evening to ten a.m. the following day?”
Reply
"Err…”
1578
"Who did you see? Who did you talk with?”
Reply
"Err I just wonder how much I…”
1578
"And again, these are Gerry and Kate’s questions.”
Reply
"Of course. I think for the most part I covered everything in an earlier question and I don’t, do you want me to summarise?”
1578
"Just summarise please, just…”
Reply
"Okay, and any additional things that we didn’t cover at the end…”
1578
"Yes.”
Reply
"Of the last interview. Err I’ve already mentioned that we did, from my actions in, I’ll get it in some kind of order, I did an immediate search err we then doubled back, we split up again, I searched the, round the back of the tennis courts, down that road, supermarket, shopping centre, met up with Dave at some point near that, found out that we’d still not, still not been met. I think probably at that point is when I went back to see Jane and, and, and found out what she, what she, what she said, and then me, Dave and Matt went down to the water front, split up on the beach, met a few, you know asked a few people as we were going round what’s going on, swept back up from the beach, err back to the, back to the apartment then spent a fair amount of time on there both just talking to people err we got photographs there, there was some attempts to, to get, you know contact with consulate and so on and so forth. Err at this point, as I said before, I think this was my first meeting with Robert MURAT when he was, in my eyes, being very helpful you know liaising with the Police, translating with the Police, offering, offering consolation along with other people, he wasn’t the only person, you know being a supportive member of the public. Err then, it’s hard to get it all back in, then we at some stage there I will have gone into the flat, seen Gerry err briefly and I just lingered around inside the flat feeling fairly useless and at some point I made the decision, I’m going to go and do another search you know I can’t be just standing around now, nothing seems to be happening, went off, searched that sort of northern part over towards Millennium and the accompanying roads and flats just below it, came back and I think at this point the, the PJ had either arrived or shortly after arrived err and then as we discussed made a brief timeline, sat in on the, the early part of the discussion where Dave was asking the PJ to release the information, you know he was saying something get it on the radio, shouldn’t there be more people here, blah, blah and then I think when Jane came in I think perhaps we saw the others housekeeper I’m not sure but then somebody offered to help with translation err then I left, went back to the flat err and then the rest of the night itself was, was largely in and around the flats err at some point Rachael making the call to her friend and then before a brief attempt at just being with the kids for a, for a little while when it was cleared it seemed to have extinguished everyone’s searches and err etcetera who, a brief spell together in the flats upstairs. So that took us through really to the morning, next morning it is a bit, a bit hazy, a bit more hazy but there was only the seeing it had come onto the television err phoning my mum err there was a lot of discussion obviously with, with people from Mark Warner who were setting up facilities to try and help the situation in terms of childcare and err I think at some stage here obviously this is where, I mean it’s definitely the where I got the number off Robert MURAT, off his, from his telephone, as he was just outside five A on the road there. Err the kids went to, they went to the crèche, they were all together, I rang work Anthony and Tom WHITEHEAD err I then made you know I think at some stage someone had left the job after Kate had gone to the, to Portimão err but I say would I try and arrange for the, the err the priest to come and see her.”
1578
"Yes.”
01:20:55
Reply
"And I think I described that err through Ocean Club reception and a few phone calls I got a message to him err and then and that, that only takes us to ten, that’s probably just after ten o’ clock I would have thought.”
1578
"Thank you. Nearly finished.”
Reply
"That’s alright.”
1578
"When did you leave Portugal?”
Reply
"We left Portugal I think on the seventeenth. It was a Thursday so it was two weeks to the day after, with Matt and Rachael and Jane and our kids. I think Diane maybe came to the airport with us although she took a different flight and we flew back to Gatwick where our cars were and Dianne flew back to either Bedford or East Midlands, somewhere nearer, nearer for her.”
1578
"How many times did you meet Kate and Gerry? I think this is in the interim period between Madeleine going missing…”
01:21:53
Reply
"Yeah, and…”
1578
"And you leaving Portugal.”
Reply
"I think I remember struggling with this one the other day, err we certainly saw them you know usually several times a day. As time went on it actually got a little less because they were involved in so many other things. Err we saw them at the Police station the next day err there was, I know there was a lot of coming and going from the Police station there. I would have said we generally saw them every day or at least one of them at high tea because the kids always generally went to this, and usually once or twice a day you know outside of that, but occasionally it could have been less, you know I think they ended up doing, they ended up doing so much and they had their family err and to some extent the family took over where we were in the first few days in that we were around a lot more for them and as more and more family came you know they, they, you know we didn’t see them as much. We went down to the church service there was a number of visits both planned and unplanned. Err and you know we often went with them to the (inaudible) err but as I said on Tuesday by the time it came to you know when we were due to go, I, I mean I think we’d, we’d served our purpose in terms of supporting them and giving our statements to the Police and we were seeing them less and less and they were functioning, they were much better in themselves err more positive, they had things to do, which has been their criticism but actually I think anyone who’s in that situation if you don’t keep yourself busy living then you know, get busy dying isn’t it, so.”
01:23:39
1578
"Do you think they were showing a normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child?”
Reply
"Err in my mind, as I think I’ve explained this, they went through unimaginable grief that no one, you wouldn’t wish on your worst enemy. They then, with help improved but you know, behind closed doors on many, many occasions down in the church you know just broken hearted, so yes. Yes, absolutely yes, and anyone who says they didn’t can get lost.”
1578
"During the holidays did you happen to see Kate and Gerry talking with someone unknown?”
Reply
"Err no, I, I would see, Gerry, Gerry’s one of these people that can walk up to a stranger and have their life story extracted from them within ten minutes and then tell you oh yeah he’s from here and blah, blah, blah he’s a very, very confident guy, and he was talking to other members of the err you know other visiting guests who I may not necessarily have known but at least who I recognised as visiting guests. I didn’t see him talking to anyone who didn’t seem to be part of the infrastructure or, or, or visiting the complex, you know I didn’t think who the hell’s that or whether he’s been accosted by someone.”
1578
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Or so on and so forth.”
01:25:05
1578
"Did you see Kate and Gerry inside a car during the holidays?
Reply
"Err no not during the holiday err you know obviously the hire car err business is well known, I, I mean, I don’t think there was any of us had a car err or saw, or there was any access to a car until sort of Gerry’s family all came, Gerry’s family had come over and hired a car when they came. So there was a car around after that but I don’t actually particularly remember err much about Kate and Gerry using it, I think on a couple of occasions, if I think closely, I think they may have driven down to the church just to try and keep the, the, the crowds and things off them. Err but certainly in terms of, the quote “holiday”, that was, you know they didn’t not have a car.”
1578
"And finally, is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth?”
Reply
"No, I just, you know it’s difficult I mean we’ve been very grateful to, to, to go though all of this again but even thinking back to our kind of collect, our collective knowledge of the, of the events, it doesn’t jump, there isn’t something that jumps out and says you know these people were there watching us and we’re convinced, we’re convinced that to have done this someone needed to be well aware of, of our arrangements in the evening and over and above that I think someone needed to be well aware of the access, the ease of access to Kate and Gerry’s flat but you don’t, I can’t, I can’t point the finger in any direction. You know we’ve had our suspicions, we’ve kind of thought you know could it have been somebody within the, within the complex, could it be one of the waiters you know even just watching us and tipping someone off but, but you know these are just the natural thoughts about, about trying to work it out. There’s no, there’s no information that says you know that, that gives us a real direction. The only thing that is absolutely you know sort of crystal in Jane’s mind and certainly in mine as her partner is that what she witnessed is prob, is almost certainly fundamental to Madeleine’s disappearance and its just a real, I’m not gonna say a crying shame, but that kind of sounds almost a bit too pathetic you know but it just seems such a great pity that that information appears at least in the popular, popular press to have been entirely pooh-poohed and dismissed as, as, as a, as irrelevant, that’s, I’m sure isn’t what the investigational line over it is in totality but that is the only one sort of grasp, thing that you can grasp and say that fits in with it.”
01:28:11
1578
"Just very, very briefly Russ or as long as you want it to last of course, err what about Madeleine as a, as a person?”
Reply
"Yeah, well I can’t, I can’t confess to knowing Madeleine well I mean that’s fair enough, we didn’t, we saw her intermittently, birthdays, barbeques, but she was a, on the occasions I’ve met her she was happy, bubbly, err relatively headstrong on previous meetings actually she seemed to have mellowed a little bit when we went on holiday, you know a girl, you know a little girl full of, full of life, full of beans, and err you know Ella and her, we hadn’t seen much of each other, they were just having a wonderful time together you know they’re so similar in age err I think that’s all I can say. She just appeared to be a you know that time of life is gorgeous isn’t it you know they’re, they’re in, they’re, you know they’re, they’ve not been sullied by school and lots of other external influences you know they’re still you know just in, they’re speaking, they’re developing personality and nothing about Madeleine would suggest, which I presume the implication here is, that she was having an unhappy life, that she was being neglected or that she was being you know brought up in a, in a, in a threatening or a dangerous environment, you know she was you know just a you know normal, happy four year, you know three year old girl.”
01:29:46
1578
"Do you think she would have gone readily with a stranger?”
Reply
"Err no I don’t, I don’t think so, err she was, she was, she was certainly more confident than my Ella, but you know I think if you look at the gene pool, me and Jane are slightly more kind of err sort of reticent sort of people and certainly you know Gerry and to a lesser extent Kate are certainly more slightly more extrovert so she’s coming from, she’s coming from an extrovert background but I don’t think just because you come from an extrovert background means that you’re, you’re, you’re fanciful and, and necessarily will sort of dismiss risk even as a kid. My Ella you know would, would, wouldn’t say boo to a goose you know when even a relative comes to the house and she’ll kind of hold your leg for a little while and I think Madeleine’s maybe not as shy as Ella but from, from the brief meetings they had I don’t think she, she came across as a, as a reckless child who just sort of disappeared you know was always out the gate of the house or anything like that you know she was always in the house, she didn’t do anything daft. But I think that’s about all I can say if I’m honest.”
1578
"Are you aware if she was aware of stranger danger for example?”
Reply
"I don’t think I would, you know I would err necessarily know enough about what Kate and Gerry had said to her to say that but as I say she didn’t come across as, she came across as buoyant and err outgoing and confident but not necessa, but not as reckless you know, she didn’t sort of put herself in physical danger you know she wasn’t kind of a kid on top of the swing who’d just jump off and (inaudible) and that sort of thing so…”
01:31:23
1578
"Right. That’s all for the moment, if you can just bare with me a few minutes, I’ll just go and have a quick chat with colleagues.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
1578
"The tapes are still in and running.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
1578
"I’ll be back very shortly.”
Reply
"Can I just grab another water? Sorry can I just grab another water, is that alright or shall I stay on?”
1578
"I’ll get you one.”
DC GIERC left the interview room.
01:32:18
DC 4064 HOLLIDAY entered the interview room.
4064
"Hello Russell.”
Reply
"Hello.”
4064
"There’s been a change of plans now, I’m going to finish off, we’re going to go through your statement.”
Reply
"Oh right, okay. Is this the…”
4064
"This is the one I’ve amended, what I will say obviously for reasons because this is going out of the country perhaps we’re doing things slightly different than we would normally.”
Reply
"Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, no it’s alright don’t worry.”
4064
"So the order is not perhaps as you and I would like.”
Reply
"No.”
4064
"But it’s the order that the interviews were conducted in and the order that the tapes in.”
Reply
"Yeah, no Andrew explained that, that there was gonna be a bit...”
4064
"So in transparency that’s the reason that they’ve been written in the way that they have.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4064
"So if you want to read through and see whether or not you’re happy.”
Reply
"I’ll cross-eyed after this one.”
4064
"You will.”
O’BRIEN began to read through his statement.
01:33:24
Reply
"It’s a minor point but it’s the tenth of April there, it says yesterday the eighth but err…”
4064
"Right, okay.”
Reply
"But it’s not.”
4064
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Must be (inaudible). Err Jane’s not officially my wife, I don’t know if that…”
4064
"But she’s common law wife?”
Reply
"Common law wife yeah, two kids and a mortgage it’s as good as.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:34:54
Reply
"And this where it says ‘Made’ should be ‘May’ I suppose, err I suppose maybe an ‘although’ between entitlements and (inaudible) just to…”
4064
"Where you looking at?”
Reply
"Just to cavort actually, just there entitlements, although it seemed to be quite trivial for me at the time. Err…”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:36:17
Reply
"It’s (inaudible), the Leicester Royal Infirmary, maybe rather than, it just reads a bit funny to me, ‘at that time Gerry was my equivalent’ it maybe just says ‘at that time Gerry was my equivalent at Glenfield.’
4064
"Okay.”
Reply
"(Inaudible) you know, I’m his boss.”
4064
"Hmm.”
Reply
"The second page apart from that seems fine.”
4064
"Okay.”
Reply
"Yeah this is, err I know that we’ve been to Madeleine’s house for (inaudible), it’s actually third and possibly second, so maybe, well it’s definitely the third because I’m sure we went the year before I err we went to Portugal, err but possibly also the second, so it’s third and possibly second… I don’t think that’s necessary, I think Maidenhead, it’s near Maidenhead, I don’t know actually (inaudible)…”
4064
"Yeah, okay.”
01:38:51
Reply
"Err I think it was this, when we arrived at the apartment near to the reception err the apartment reception it’s supposed, rather than the, err Ocean Club, if that makes sense… Err oh no, Matt left early actually so (inaudible) keeps changing err he was just ill, just sort of sat there looking (inaudible).”
4064
"Okay.”
01:40:24
Reply
"I suppose it’s just from a point of view of translation, maybe odd might be better as occasional, we had a few odd conversations.”
4064
"Okay.”
Reply
"That’s actually (inaudible) (inaudible) (inaudible) sanctimonious. (Inaudible) (inaudible) err I suppose one of the questions that was asked was to say about who did the booking and I think that was, it doesn’t actually say it was Rachael who did it but all the other bookings were made by (inaudible).”
4064
"That might be it then, that’s (inaudible) isn’t it.”
Reply
"Oh right.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:43:14
Reply
"I don’t know if that makes sense to you, ‘I recall their front door was accessed from the car park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.”
4064
"Should be a comma.”
Reply
"Oh right, ‘their front door was accessed from the car park, and comma, access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.’”
4064
"Yes.”
01:45:22
Reply
"I think in terms of number there, ‘a’ cocktail I think was, I don’t think was there, after all what has been said it was only the one (inaudible)… err just because this sounds specific for the Wednesday night err that’s, that was a kind of more generic thing.”
4064
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Err so I don’t know if it’s maybe, if you say over, over, during, over the week I checked on some occasions and missed others but it doesn’t, that’s not specifically for the Wednesday night… Err I don’t remember ever saying this bit, I don’t even know if we have any photographs of this, we didn’t have much in the way of photographs, for some reason our camera never left the flat very often so I recall Madeleine and Ella, they were less than a day before.”
4064
"Wasn’t Jane the one responsible for the picture of Madeleine with the tennis ball?”
Reply
"I don’t think so, I think that was from someone else’s camera.”
4064
"Right.”
Reply
"But I may be wrong there.”
4064
"Right.”
Reply
"But err but I don’t, I honestly don’t think that that was actually a photo from Jane’s camera.”
4064
"Right.”
Reply
"So I don’t know, my own memory from there was Jane anyway but I recall Madeleine and Ella as I say less than a day before and the rest of it I don’t think I can, I’m not entirely sure that’s correct anyway. We had back, we’ve had our pictures from, yeah we’ve got our, we’ve got the pictures and I don’t recall ever seeing the one that was err that was on…”
4064
"Okay.”
01:48:12
Reply
"Err again, this, having said this to Andy this is sort of, err well in this day and age it was more of a kind of, that was what we were actually discussing at the time saying you know, in this day and age you know you can’t feel, you feel, you feel uncomf, people are made to feel uncomfortable doing what would have been considered normal things in the past. It wasn’t like, I didn’t feel uncomfortable at the time at all, it was just normal conversation, its only in retrospect that it just seems a terrible coincidence.”
4064
"Yeah, it’s that horrible coincidence.”
Reply
"Yeah, I just remember the err, I mean that’s not that I found it most uncomfortable in this day and age, having a discussion about a photograph of your own child, that’s not, that’s not, I don’t know whether that’s just…”
4064
"So what do you want it to say?”
Reply
"I don’t, well, yes it was actually describing what happened, it was, we said you know in this day and age people are made to feel…”
4064
"So if I said we agreed.”
Reply
"Yeah we ag, yeah, the group agreed or you know you can say they were all discussing it, those present agreed that…”
4064
"In this day and age…”
01:49:25
Reply
"In this day and age err photographing your own child could make you feel uncomfortable. I suppose, I don’t know how much of the, that video will be transcribed as well but you know at the time we also made the comment that you know you were more likely to, to sort of be harmed by someone you know rather than, rather than some random stranger and it’s ridiculous.”
4064
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Mm.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:51:58
Reply
"Err I think it’s probably a little before, maybe nine, maybe about, it’d probably be about nine fifty five or something. I said around ten, so… Are: a,r,e… Err (inaudible) (inaudible) on Andrew’s sort of copy, I don’t, I’m not quite sure, I think that’s actually referring to what I’ve written on, on the, on the timeline.”
4064
"Yes.”
Reply
"So it doesn’t really, I’ve got no knowledge particularly of err of Matt’s check apart from what he told me later so I think that’s, that’s sort of err don’t really make any sense to me there.”
4064
"No.”
Reply
"So maybe just delete that.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:55:01
Reply
"Again I’m not quite sure, I don’t think I’ve ever, I don’t think I was ever aware that it was Jane’s photograph, it was only, it was only ever err Kate’s camera, if someone got Kate’s camera she was in no fit state to start searching through, so Kate’s camera was given to us and we searched through for most useful photograph that was on it, err…”
4064
"So if I just say a picture had been taken…”
Reply
"Yeah, I think, a picture, a picture had been taken, we’ll use that… It says conducted an email there but…”
4064
"Where? Where we looking at?”
Reply
"Err it was, the second last line, Dave was also to make use of the media and think that he may have conducted an email, constructed.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:57:35
DC GIERC re-entered the room.
Reply
"Err there’s a (inaudible) (inaudible) (inaudible).”
1578
"If you get to an appropriate point Kate I shall cease this interview, take the tapes out, seal them up and put fresh ones in.”
4064
"But I might need to sign with the amendments.”
1578
"Okay, we’ve got two minutes left.”
4064
"Nearly there.”
O’BRIEN continued to read through his statement.
01:58:35
Reply
"That’s Jane is not willing to go back… Yeah okay.”
4064
"Okay? Alright, it may be at some point in the future we come and visit you with a more polished version.”
Reply
"Okay.”
4064
"But obviously I’m conscious that you need to be getting away to…”
Reply
"Oh no, no don’t, don’t worry, I mean as long as we’ve got, it’s only (inaudible) (inaudible).”
4064
"Yeah, okay. Right, if you can read the caption here, that relates to the English law.”
Reply
"Okay.”
4064
"Just there.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4064
"Okay? So that’s what you’re signing for there. If you can initial the amendment, so on the eighth when we’ve conducted the interview, sign at the bottom. Then at the end of the sentence, it’s so that we can show that these were made in your presence. The next one here. And sign just there. And there, sign at the bottom. Sign there at the bottom. It’s just this one, sign at the bottom. This one there, and there, and at the bottom. Just at the end, and the end there. I think we’re good on that page so just at the bottom.”
02:01:19
Reply
"(Inaudible).”
4064
"It’s alright. At the end sign, just so that we can show that there’s nothing been added on without your knowledge, and then at the bottom there, that’s it. Thank you. And we will keep…”
Reply
"Yes.”
4064
"The one where we’ve made amendments on.”
Reply
"Okay.”
4064
"That’s it.”
1578
"We’ll cease this interview, put some more disks in.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
1578
"And we have one final question which is concerning the re-enactment.”
Reply
"Yeah, okay.”
1578
"Okay, so…”
4064
"Thank you very much.”
Reply
"Thanks.”
1578
"Thanks Kate.”
4064
"Okay.”
02:02:00
DC HOLLIDAY leaves the interview room.
1578
"The time is four thirteen p.m. this interview is ceasing.”
The interview ceased at 1613 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
SIGNATURE (Sgd)______________________________________________________
SG/SLS


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