27 May 2009

McCann Case: Dianne Webster Rogatory Interview Part I


RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No
SVF124A
Person Interviewed:
Dianne WEBSTER
Number of Pages
34
Place of Interview:
Force Headquarters, Enderby
Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:
11.04.08
Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced:
1026 hours
Time Concluded:
1156 hours
Duration of Interview:
90 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s)
DC 4078 FERGUSON
Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present
None
Tape counter times
Person speaking
Text

00:00:01
4078
"It says we’re recording okay so I’ll just say now that the time is ten twenty six and its Friday isn’t it, the eleventh of April. It is Friday isn’t it?”
Reply
"Is it the eleventh?”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"It says so on the clock here.”
Reply
"Oh right.”
4078
"I wouldn’t have known otherwise.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"And it’s two thousand and eight. We’re in an interview room at the Headquarters at Leicestershire Police and I am DC Sophie FERGUSON and I work in the Major Crime Unit at Leicestershire Police. Can you just give me your full name please?”
Reply
"Dianne WEBSTER.”
4078
"And your date of birth.”
Reply
"Ten, three, forty four.”
4078
"Thank you. What’s your address Dianne?”
Reply
"Err fifty nine (inaudible) Road, (inaudible), Bedford.”
4078
"And your home telephone number?”
Reply
"O, one, two, three, four, seven, seven, two, three, one, five.”
4078
"Do you know your mobile without referring to anything?”
Reply
"Sorry?”
4078
"Do you know your mobile telephone number?”
Reply
"Err no but I can, I’d had to look in my bag for it.”
4078
"Yeah we’ll sort that out later on.”
Reply
"(Laughs) I don’t memorise that.”
4078
"Okay, you’re here at the request of the Portuguese Police and you’re obviously aware of the reasons why you’re here and they will at some point, although they’re not monitoring you today, they will be viewing the interview. Now you’ve been given a letter from us outlining the objectives for the interview but please ask if at any time there’s anything that you want clarifying or if you want me to speak up or to talk more slowly…”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Or more loudly just tell me, and your time and co-operation today is obviously appreciated by us. I just ask you to be patient with me as no doubt we’ll be covering things that you have gone over time and time again on your own and, you know, amongst the group and with the Police in Portugal and with me before.”
Reply
"Yes, yeah.”
00:01:41
4078
"I’m going to ask you to concentrate as much as you can and try to recall what you heard, saw and did around the third of May two thousand and seven, and as I said earlier, please let me know if you need to take a break. I tend to ask fairly open questions and then sort of more closed questions just to clarify points if we need to, okay?”
Reply
"Okay.”
4078
"So just to start off then, you don’t live in Leicester do you?”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"You’ve just given me your address, and what’s your connection to the group that went on holiday?”
Reply
"Err I’m Fiona PAYNE’S mother.”
4078
"And how much, I say how much did you have to do with the group before, you know have you been away with the group before?”
Reply
"Oh no, no and originally err my recollection is that the, the holiday that, that err we eventually went on err I think originally it was Fiona and Dave that err booked it and invited me and my husband along if we wanted to go on it. He didn’t want to go because its not his sort of holiday and then later on it err it grew that there was other, other people going along as well, which I was unaware of at the time and err I sort of said to Dave well you know if you’ve got friends going forget about me, you know, I won’t, I won’t come and he said no, no you must come along and so that’s how I came to be on the holiday.”
4078
"Had you met any of the rest of the group before that holiday?”
Reply
"Err yes I’d met them all previously, I knew err Jane and Russell probably better than any of them, I knew Kate and Gerry err Rachael I’d met before but I think, I don’t remember meeting Matt although I think they were at Fiona and Dave’s wedding I may have met him before but err I didn’t meet him really until, or get to know him until that holiday.”
00:03:41
4078
"And was it just at Fiona and Dave’s wedding that you’d met the others or more frequent than that?”
Reply
"Well no I knew err Jane and Russell because when they lived in Leicester they, well Russell was Dave’s best man and err I knew, I knew them before, before then err and I’m trying to think actually, I know I’d met Jane but I don’t think I’d met Russell err but they were close friends of err Fiona and Dave until they moved away to Exeter.”
4078
"And were Gerry and Kate…”
Reply
"And Gerry and Kate I didn’t meet them till Fiona and Dave’s wedding but I knew of them because I knew they were err Fiona and Dave’s err friends err and I knew they’d been on holiday with them before. I remember seeing photographs of Kate and Gerry on holiday with them and Kate was pregnant with Madeleine at the time.”
4078
"Okay, so just to summarise then, Jane and Russell you were quite familiar with.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"And the others you’d sort of met them and you got to know them as the holiday went on.”
Reply
"Well I mean I, I’d obviously met Kate and Gerry after Fiona’s wedding several times when they were round at Fiona’s err house visiting, you know if we were up there visiting Fiona and Dave and they came round err so yes I had, I did know them err quite well by the time the holiday came round.”
00:05:15
4078
"Okay, the date of the holiday, the date the holiday began was the twenty eighth of April two thousand and seven.”
Reply
"Yes.”
4078
"How did you get over to Portugal?”
Reply
"Err we flew from err East Midlands err I travelled up to Leicester the day before we were due to leave and err Kate and Gerry, or Gerry, had organised mini bus, a mini bus or a couple of mini buses to transport us to East Midlands airport so err Fiona and Dave and I err drove to Kate and Gerry’s house, left, left the car at their house and then we all went in two mini buses to the airport. Err I’m trying to think, I think the flight was about nine thirty or something in the morning. Err I think the, the flight, I’m trying to think it was a, maybe a bit later in the evening I can’t quite remember but there was nothing untoward, you know, it was just a normal err journey there. Err when we arrived at you know at, in Portugal I think the other thing that Gerry had err booked, I don’t know whether he did it by phone or online, was a, err a mini bus to take us to the err resort where we were staying err and there was a bit of a kafuffle because we had, he’d asked for several child seats for the err bus because obviously there were five children in the group and I think there was only, I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find  other seats err and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz.”
00:07:34
4078
"And how did the children cope with the journey?”
Reply
"Err fine, yeah.”
4078
"They’d do better with (inaudible).”
Reply
"I think we were all on a high you know we were starting a holiday, bit of sunshine and err, err you know once we got there and err we checked in we’d driven, driven from the err reception area to the apartments where we were staying and I think it was at that point the driver gave us the keys for the apartment err the other, err Jane and Russell and err Rachael and Matt, they’d flown out from Gatwick, which was where the holiday was originally from, we were all supposed to fly out from Gatwick but the reason we flew from East Midlands is because err I think on the journey back there was, there was something about the timing coming back that wasn’t really suitable for children err the fact that err four of the group, or five of them including me, lived in the Leicestershire area, whereas, whereas err…”
4078
"It’s all a bit of a long drive afterwards.”
Reply
"Rachael and Matt are London and err Russell and Jane are Exeter so London was obviously easier for them. Err so that’s right, when we, when we arrived at the holiday resort err Jane and Russell and, and Matt and Rachael were already there, they’d arrived earlier, a couple of hours before us or something err so we went, went to our apartments, I was obviously staying in the same apartment as Fiona and Dave err they’d got a larger apartment err which meant they were on the first floor as opposed to ground floor.”
00:09:47
4078
"Do you remember what the number of the apartment was?”
Reply
"Err no, I can’t remember was it G, H, O, five, I don’t know.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"I really don’t know, it’s not something that I was concerned with, I knew how to get there so.”
4078
"Yeah, and what everyone else has said then, you are the only ones on the first floor.”
Reply
"We were the only ones on the first floor, we had the, we had a bigger apartment than the others, err which is what Dave, Dave had originally err asked for anyway because he wanted to have err a separate bedroom I think for the girls, although they were in cots, and err I, I just slept on the err there was a folding bed in the liv, the sort of living room area, and that’s where I slept, although there were two beds in one of the bedrooms, that’s also where Lily was sleeping in her cot so I didn’t err didn’t want to sleep in the same room as her.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Err, you want me to go through the whole week do you?”
4078
"Well yeah, I know it’s a tall order.”
Reply
"Yeah I mean it is difficult because err…”
4078
"If you could just begin by just describe, telling me where your apartment was in relation to the other apartments, just so that I can get a picture of it.”
00:11:
Reply
"Right, well ours err Kate and Gerry’s was the end apartment on the ground floor and then err I think err it was Matt and Rachael next, next to them, and then I’m not sure if there was a, a gap or an empty apartment then Jane and Russell, because our apartment was above, it was sort of between err you know if I looked from the balcony above I could see Kate and Gerry’s, I could see Matt and Rachael a part of their garden on that side and then on the other side I think it was Russell and err Jane, I could just see a bit of theirs, err so I think there might have been an apartment between that was empty, I’m not sure.”
4078
"Yeah I think you’re right on that.”
Reply
"Yeah, I’m not sure though.”
00:12:24
4078
"How did you get to your apartment? What was the route that you had to take?”
Reply
"Err well we went err we generally went err right up to the end of the, we went through the front entrance if you like, not the, not the entrance that overlooked the, err pool or anything, I don’t think there was an entrance. We didn’t have a, we only had one exit really apart from the, err because veranda you couldn’t go anywhere.”
4078
"No.”
Reply
"You just went out onto the balcony, err so the only exit was through, through the front door either down the lift or down the stairs which took you down into err a covered area which err there was the doors to the other apartments and then you went out from there into the car park area and then out there onto the road.”
4078
"When you say there was doors for the other apartments, was that to anybody in the groups apartments?”
Reply
"Err well yes I mean I remember us seeing a, a, there was Jane, Jane and Russell’s apartment and err Matt and Rachael’s.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"But I never ever actually went along that err subsequently talking to Dave and Fiona as they said you could go along that way and get into Kate and Gerry’s as well but I, I’d never explored that area if you like.”
00:14:01
4078
"Right okay, I’m a bit clearer in my mind now.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"I’m just thinking of the route that you would take, so you wouldn’t, you wouldn’t have to pass Gerry and Kate’s apartment? You’d only sort of pass the doors of Jane and Russell’s and Matthew and Rachael’s to get up to your apartment, is that right?”
Reply
"Well it depends where you’re coming from, I mean if, if we were coming from the, err, the pool area of the Ocean Club then yes we would, we would pass Kate and Gerry’s apartment on the outside because there’s was on the end err if we were coming up the road there.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Err from the swimming err pool, Kate and Gerry’s apartment but we would go past it and round into what is the, the front entrance really err of the apartment, the whole block.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"So yes we would, but if we went, if we were just going straight along the road then err yeah, I mean you would, because they were on the corner.”
4078
"You know with their door to their apartment, the back door where the, where we’ve seen all, we’ve all seen the pictures of the window with the shutters.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"You wouldn’t have any cause to go directly outside that area, is that, that’s what I’m trying to dry up?”
Reply
"No, no.”
4078
"Because that’s segregated by a wall and then you’ve got the car park, am I right?”
Reply
"Yeah that’s right.”
4078
"Yeah it’s difficult when you haven’t been there.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"But I’ve picked it up during the week as we’ve been going on. So although you would pass by their apartment sort of around the roadside.”
Reply
"It would be the outside err on the road.”
4078
"Yeah, yeah. And the reason I’m asking, I’m dwelling on this is so that if you were walking past to go to your apartment you probably wouldn’t ordinarily notice the shutter area of their apartment I would’ve thought.”
Reply
"No, no.”
00:15:56
4078
"Okay, we’ll move on from there then and you said oh you’re gonna want me to go through the whole week. Only as far as you can remember, I’ll leave, I’ll try not to interrupt you and if you just tell me what you can remember.”
Reply
"Err, right, so we arrived there on the err the Saturday and it’s all very vague I have to say, we did, we did err we all met up at the Ocean Club, I’m trying to think where it was, err because it was the beginning of a, of a new weeks holiday makers if you like they, they err Mark Warner err would, would give a run down on what’s available and all this so I think we all gathered err I’m sure it was in the, in the, was it the Tapas err down by the pool area, I think it, I think it must have been and err at that point the, whoever was in charge of the tennis or the sailing or whatever activities would, would give a little err talk about what’s available that they, that they sort of were in charge of and at that point you could err out your names down for whatever activities you want to do during the week and err I’d never played tennis, I’ve played badminton but not tennis and I thought it’d be quite a good idea to have some tennis lessons, which err I put my name down for and Kate and Jane. I can’t remember if Rachael did, I don’t think Rachael did put down for tennis lessons I can’t remember. Err so that was more or less err because the tennis lessons run for five mornings err that was more or less part of the mornings taken up with err tennis. Err on the Saturday night we went, we ate at the Millennium restaurant which was the main one which was further away from where we were staying, err so we all ate there, the children as well, everybody, and err and then that, that night I think we all just went back to our apartments err I think we were all pretty tired.”
4078
"A long day.”
00:19:22
Reply
"Yeah, yeah err and then Sunday I mean everyday is so much the same I just find it very difficult to recollect.”
4078
"Yeah, I mean if there’s nothing specific about a particular day and you can’t bring it to mind, you know, then that’s…”
Reply
"No, no I know that from the, the sun, the Sunday night was the first night we ate at the Tapas restaurant.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"And err they only ever took so many bookings you know, although there were quite a lot of tables in the restaurant it was never ever full, in fact it was generally I would say quite empty err but this was because I think the staff were limited you know they had limited staff at the restaurant so they could only cope with so many people and originally err I think you had to get there early in the morning to book, you could book at the entrance to the Ocean Club err and Rachael somehow managed to get a block booking every night for eight thirty. Err so that was why we ended up going there every night because it was near the apartments.”
4078
"Was there anywhere else that you could have gone nearby?”
Reply
"Well only the Millennium restaurant which was quite a trek away and to be honest I wasn’t impressed with the food anyway there.”
4078
"Yeah.”
00:21:07
Reply
"It was self service and I don’t really err didn’t think much to the food. (Sighs) Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday I remember it rained, it was raining so the tennis lesson err which normally started about, I think it was supposed to start at nine o’ clock but because people had children to get into err the, the play groups or whatever err our instructor decided I think that we’d start at quarter past nine so that was when tennis lesson started and it was for an hour I think, the tennis lesson. Err but on the Wednesday morning it was err delayed if you like, it wasn’t cancelled, we did have it later.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"Err and that, that morning, I’d only ever gone to the Millennium twice for breakfast which is where they went for breakfast that, that was the only place you could have breakfast err and I didn’t go because it was too much of a rush having the tennis lesson supposedly starting at quarter past nine, to trail all the way down there for breakfast and then have to rush back and play tennis.”
4078
"Play tennis on a full stomach.”
00:22:41
Reply
"So I, I was the one, I just stayed in the apartment and got myself a bit of toast and a cup of coffee whereas the others…”
4078
"Get peace and quiet presumably.”
Reply
"Yeah, err as far as I’m aware I mean I can’t, I can’t speak for the other members of the group but certainly Fiona and Dave took err their two off in the morning, you know, and went and had breakfast and dropped them off at, at the err the child care or whatever its called. Err and the children were there till, I can’t remember, eleven, eleven thirty or something like that I think.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Err…”
4078
"So on the Monday and Tuesday presumably you’d had your first two tennis lessons.”
Reply
"Yeah err yeah was it the Monday they started or the Sunday, do you know I can’t remember that. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, it might have started on the Sunday err because I think on the, on the Friday had, had the event, this event not happened err there was supposed to be a tennis dinner that night err which I think was going to be held at the Tapas restaurant, again I’m not a hundred percent sure. Err but of course that didn’t happen so I think, I think by then the tennis lessons would have been finished.”
4078
"Right.”
00:24:24
Reply
"So it might have been Sunday to Thursday. Err what else did I do, I went to the beach err on two or three occasions with err Fiona and Dave, well Fiona and the girls and sometimes Jane and Russell or, I remember Jane, I think some of the times the boys were off doing their windsurfing and sailing and whatever, err I know Kate and Gerry were very into the tennis err so I wouldn’t say that, that I saw a lot of all of them during the day, it was usually in the evening that we’d meet up.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"Err we’d meet, the children used to have high tea I think err I don’t know whether it was about five o’ clock which was done again in the Tapas area, there was an area for the children to have their high tea which was provided by Mark Warner. Err so yeah I was there several times when they were all having high tea and err parents were there as well, or at least one parent, err…”
4078
"Did you do any of the taking or fetching from the kids clubs with Lily and Scarlet?”
Reply
"Err no I never took them, I never err I can’t remember you see.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"I might, I might have err picked them up one day but I think that Dave would have been there as well I don’t know, I just don’t remember.”
00:27:05
4078
"We’ve gone through generally that you were playing tennis in the morning, sort of for about an hour at quarter past nine, quarter past ten time.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"And it’s the Sunday night which you first met at the Tapas.”
Reply
"Yes.”
4078
"Do you remember much about that particular, with it being the first meal?”
Reply
"Well no nothing, you know, we were all looking forward to having a, a good week really. I mean it was, the weather was not very good, it was quite cold err and err I’m not sure whether the first, the first, first night err I remember giving a jumper to Kate that I’d, you know, I’d taken a sort of parka zip up thing err that might have been the first night I don’t know, because she’d only got a, a flimsy shirt on or whatever. It was cold and I lent her my jumper and after that we went down err some of us had jackets on, you know, it was quite cold, and the Tapas restaurant was, although it had a roof on it and it had a err sort of Perspex screen down the side it was actually open at the end so you could get a, quite a err breeze blowing through, err but no I mean we were just all err having a, having a nice meal and, and it was like that every night really.”
00:29:07
4078
"Did a routine develop then? Well it must have done I suppose, in the fact that it being booked at the same time every day.”
Reply
"Well yes I mean this is, this is why I think Madeleine was taken because we were, we were targeted from an early, early point I think, you know, we were doing the same thing everyday, every night, same routine.”
4078
"And in relation to your granddaughters, they went to the kids club in the morning. Did they go in the afternoon or?”
Reply
"No because err I think it was only the older ones that, that err had an afternoon kids club. Err I don’t know, well I don’t think they did, because I know they only went to one of them and I think Scarlet was in the other one, I don’t think they were both in the same one. But I don’t, no I don’t think they did err I don’t think they went to the afternoon one.”
4078
"So after your tennis then, what would you generally do after your tennis?”
Reply
"Oh dear, (sighs) well I’d go back to the apartment I know that and probably have a shower and err, err sometimes I’d just sit out on the veranda err other occasions I might go down to the pool and err do a bit of sunbathing.”
4078
"Did you venture in the pool at all?”
Reply
"Yeah eventually.”
4078
"How was it?”
Reply
"Cold.”
4078
"Cold, that’s what everyone else has said.”
Reply
"Yeah err…”
4078
"What did you do for lunch?”
00:31:17
Reply
"Lunch I think we had that in the apartment err there was a Supermarket just down the road, which I think I went a few times and did shopping, err put some stuff in the house because obviously it was an apartment with a kitchen and whatnot. Err I spent a lot of time making sandwiches."
4078
"Did you do the preparing for, because I understand a lot of people visited for lunch time because it was the biggest apartment?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"So did you end up doing all the preparations?”
Reply
"Yeah I used to err I volunteered, I wasn’t expected to but err but I can’t, I can’t, I wouldn’t say that was everyday. You see I get confused now between the actual weeks holiday and the, the weeks after Madeleine was taken.”
4078
"How long were you there for afterwards?”
Reply
"Two, another two weeks.”
4078
"So they kind of all blur into one don’t they.”
Reply
"Yeah because after that you know I was doing lunch for everybody, and we were all, we were all sort of err having a muck in and, but it was always in, in the apartment we were in because it was the biggest one err but the holiday week err if Fiona and Dave, if they went they were doing, I think they did a bit of windsurfing and sailing as well so on those mornings if, if I’d finished the tennis they were obviously away doing something so I was on my own really. Err so yeah I would just sit in the, in the veranda or go and sit down by the pool. (Inaudible) you know I don’t have any clear recollection of exactly what I did, when.”
00:33:24
4078
"But Wednesday stands out to you because you know the weather wasn’t very good?”
Reply
"Wednesday I remember because it was raining in the morning, we thought oh no tennis, you know, but we did have the tennis later on because I remember err we were waiting for the courts to dry.”
4078
"Tell me about the Wednesday then as far as you can remember from there.”
Reply
"Well that morning I did go to the Millennium with Dave and Fiona err for breakfast because there was no tennis and I think we, we sat there and I think, I seem to recollect seeing Kate and Gerry then who were sitting with us and I think they’d just finished their breakfast or something, again I’m not clear on that.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Err and then we would have, well we would have gone back to the apartment, I can’t remember if it was still raining. I just don’t remember.”
4078
"Okay, and were there any days where you didn’t go to the Tapas for tea on the holiday week, apart from the first night?”
Reply
"For our evening meal you mean?”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"No it was every night, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.”
4078
"I know one of the other group have had tummy problems shall we say.”
00:35:21
Reply
"Oh, oh god yes, yeah. That’s right I’d forgotten about that you see.”
4078
"But you were okay, you went every night?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah, that’s right I remember now. Matt had an upset tummy and I think err Russell did, was it Russell or Jane, I think they just about all did apart from us, we were alright. (Laughs).”
4078
"(Laughs) And there was also a quiz night one night at the Tapas, can you remember going to that or being present when that was going on?”
Reply
"Well yes I remember that but again I can’t remember, I’m, whether it was the Tuesday night or Wednesday night I can’t remember.”
4078
"Okay, well err…”
Reply
"But I know it was definitely not the Thursday night.”
4078
"Okay, I’m just really not trying to spill over into Thursday just yet.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"We’ll stop at the Wednesday then, you know, I completely understand that you can’t remember more detail because it’s a long time ago and you had the other two weeks afterwards.”
Reply
"Yes.”
4078
"So it’s very difficult. Is there anything up until the Wednesday night then that caused you any concern amongst the group?”
Reply
"Not at all, nothing.”
4078
"And particularly with the children, anything happen with any of the children that’s worthy of mentioning?”
Reply
"No, not that I can recollect.”
4078
"Okay, and how did you get on with everybody?”
00:36:49
Reply
"Fine, a great bunch.”
4078
"And were you aware of any other problems within the group?”
Reply
"No, no.”
4078
"So everything was as you’d expect from a group of people on holiday that got on well?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
4078
"Okay. With the tennis lessons, firstly how did you get on with them?”
Reply
"Not very well (laughs).”
4078
"You’ve not taken them up since?”
Reply
"No, badminton and tennis unfortunately...”
4078
"Very different aren’t they.”
Reply
"Yeah, and I’ve been playing badminton for too long so, but it was quite interesting.”
4078
"So I’m assuming you didn’t have your own tennis equipment?”
Reply
"No, no, it was the club’s equipment.”
4078
"Do you remember about the others, whether they had their own equipment?”
Reply
"Err no I think it was all the club’s equipment. I don’t think err I don’t think anybody had any, I don’t, as I say I don’t know about, I know Gerry was playing tennis but I don’t know if he had his own tennis racquet but I know that Kate didn’t, she, we were all borrowing, using the club err racquets and balls.”
4078
"Okay, and you also said that you’d been to the beach a couple of times.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And you don’t know which days they were, and I accept that, but can you remember the times at the beach and remember how busy the beach was when you were there?”
00:38:17
Reply
"The beach wasn’t busy, at that time of year it was still quite cold and err its not what I would call a busy beach err we did eat in the err there was a, err, sort of café restaurant on the beach, I can’t remember what its called err I remember we visited that err earlier on in the week I think and that, that was always quite busy that particular restaurant.”
4078
"I think I know the answer to the question I’m going to ask you because I think we covered this when I met you, you know, all those months ago. At the times where, for example you’re at the beach or playing tennis, was there anybody that sticks in your mind there with hindsight that, with what you know now, may have been suspicious?”
Reply
"No I can’t, I’m not the most observant of people you know, life just goes on and I might be seeing things but not, not really taking any notice of anything, but no I can’t say that I saw anything that would make me sit up and…”
4078
"And you’ve already said that you know the children were happy and they were all occupied because they were doing various different things themselves.”
Reply
"Mm.”
00:40:12
4078
"Did you see much of the children? I know you said you saw them at high tea and you spent time with them during that time. What about during the days, do you remember spending time on the beach with them and around the tennis courts much?”
Reply
"Well there was a play area just by where the tennis courts err are and err yeah I mean we used to go down there, I think sometimes in the afternoons the, later in the afternoon go down there and, and play with the children, err and again after they’d had their high tea there’d be time spent playing with them before we all went back to our apartments to put them to bed and prepare for our eve, our evening.”
4078
"And you said that you think that because of your routine was going to Tapas every night that you’d been targeted, if you like, early on.”
Reply
"Definitely, definitely.”
4078
"Was there anything about Madeleine, from what you knew of her that would lead somebody to target her in particular?”
Reply
"Well she was a lovely little girl, you know, err very petite, err quite a striking girl, and I don’t, I mean, well she was blonde, or fair haired, but it may have been also that whether the fact the end apartment was perhaps more accessible than any of the others. I really don’t know but I do think she was definitely targeted and I think err at the kids club, I think sometimes the children, the older children, were taken on outings to err I think they went to a beach so again she could have been watched, pinpointed then, err where they had high tea was on a raised area, it wasn’t in the Tapas restaurant it was another bit that was higher up, beside a wall which again they could be watched, the children could be seen from err beyond this, this wall.”
00:42:54
4078
"And how would you describe her personality?”
Reply
"Well she was just a normal happy, little girl, you know she was a nice girl.”
4078
"Yeah, is there anything that we haven’t already covered that you can remember before the Wednesday night?”
Reply
"Before the Wednesday night?”
4078
"Well before we move on to Thursday.”
Reply
"Oh right, err it’s so hard, I wish I just paid more attention really.”
4078
"Well you had no cause to did you.”
Reply
"I had no cause to.”
4078
"And the meals at the Tapas, describe to me the routine of the people checking on the children.”
Reply
"Well I mean the checks were done very, very regularly and very frequent as far as I remember but again because you know there’s nine people sitting at a big round table you’re not always aware of who’s doing what, when, I’m not clock watching or anything and err Fiona and Dave had a monitor so they, you know, that worked from sitting at the table and err you know I had no reason to sit and watch what people are doing, when they’re going, how often they’re going. I know there was lots of to’ing and fro’ing you know, it wasn’t, it wasn’t just one person going every hour or anything like that, it was more frequent than that.”
4078
"But you personally weren’t involved in the checks because you had no need to be because David and Fiona had the monitor.”
Reply
"No, no, yeah.”
4078
"Okay I’ll just move my chair I’ve got backache. Are you okay to carry on for a while?”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Yeah. Well we’ll move on then to the Thursday which I’m sure is perhaps a bit clearer in your mind because you’ve had to go through it so often, and if you could juts tell me what you remember starting from the morning as far as you can remember through the day.”
00:45:05
Reply
"Right the, the morning was the last tennis lesson and err my tennis suddenly improved and then after that, again I would have just gone back to the apartment and showered and whatever, err Fiona and Dave were err I’m trying to remember if that was the day that they were err supposed to be windsurfing but it was too rough and they did go out instead or whether that was another day. Sorry I can’t, I can’t remember that bit. Lunch, lunch we would have had in the apartment, now the other thing I remember is because Scarlet and Lily at that point both had an afternoon sleep, there’d be certain amount of time each afternoon spent in the apartment err…”
4078
"Was that for you or for David and Dianne, or took it in turns?”
Reply
"For, for err well David and Fiona. I mean Dave might be out doing something. Sometimes the men would go off and play tennis in the afternoon because you could actually go and book a court and play tennis. Err so I mean there was always somebody in the apartment, it was generally Fiona I would say, and err and I would be there as well on call I think and the children were having their afternoon nap. So afternoon activities wouldn’t start until they’d had their nap err and that particular day err Dave I know was windsurfing in the afternoon, I’ve just got a picture of him walking out of the sea in his wetsuit. Err and err Russell and Matt took out a boat because I remember err Russell, who doesn’t know anything about sailing, had to rescue Matt.”
4078
"Yeah he’s told us all about that, yeah.”
00:48:00
Reply
"Yeah, again I’ve got a photograph of them on the beach after that, so after the, after the girls had had their sleep we obviously went down to the beach err and we all went down apart, well again Kate and Gerry, I think they were more into tennis than the beach, so I didn’t see, see them there that day. Err so there was myself, Fiona, Rachael, and Jane with all the children. We went down to the beach that day and just played around for a bit err  and then the men came in from their activities and we then went, because it was quite late, we decided rather than rush the children, to high tea at the Ocean Club. We’d just give them high tea in this beach restaurant that we’d been to before. So the children had high tea, or their tea, in this err restaurant, beach café, err…”
4078
"Who else was there around that time?”
Reply
"Who else? Well it was, it was all of us err apart from Kate and Gerry and their children, yeah we were all there and err the men, I think because err Dave, I don’t know if the other two had them as well, they had to be back for tennis or something or some tennis thing, I don’t know if its due to start at six or something like that. So they, they, they went ahead err before us and we waited until the children had finished having their ice creams and whatnot and then err we went back to the Ocean Club err I’m trying to remember if we went to the play area or whether I went, because it was a common thing every night the parents would play with the children in this play area and I can’t honestly remember if I went with them that night or whether I just went straight back to the apartment because it was quite late and Fiona and Dave are not good at time keeping so we were getting later and later each night in, in getting down to the restaurant.”
4078
"Everyone else says that yeah.”
00:51:32
Reply
"(Laughs) err so I honestly can’t remember if I was out, out there at the play area that night or whether I just went back and because we all needed to have a shower and everything. Fiona went out for a run I know that, she went out for a little run, err ah I wish I could remember.”
4078
"It’s perfectly understandable that you can’t. Did you see Kate and Gerry at all during the day that day?”
Reply
"Err well only in the morning when, at the tennis, err I’m get, do you know I’m getting confused because I know there was one err evening where they were, they were all playing, and they were playing tennis and we were, there’s the tennis courts were down a few steps that was more than the rest of the area and err we were with the children watching the men play but I can’t remember what night that was.”
4078
"You said earlier that the men had had to go back from the beach they were conscious of the time because they had something to go to, was that tennis?”
Reply
"That was tennis yeah.”
4078
"But it wasn’t the only time that the men played at that time of day?”
Reply
"No I don’t think so.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"I don’t think so but I can’t be a hundred percent sure.”
00:53:24
4078
"Do you remember if you saw Madeleine that day?”
Reply
"I don’t think I did see her that day because the fact that we’d gone down to the beach in the afternoon and we hadn’t got the kid, the high tea, had we gone to the high tea err with the children then yes we would have seen her, but err I don’t recollect err seeing her because in the morning at the tennis she would have been in the kids club.”
4078
"And if the time that you were watching the men play tennis, well if it was that day or a different day, can you remember much about that time if that’s sort of clear in your mind?”
Reply
"What, in relation to…”
4078
"If, I’m just, it seemed to be clearer in your mind than some other things, you said you can remember standing there and the courts were lower and you can remember standing watching.”
Reply
"Well yeah I can remember err I can remember watching the men playing tennis but I can’t put a day on it, I can’t, I can’t remember err I don’t know if it was that, I don’t think it was that night I think it might be another night.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Because err when err when Madeleine went missing I, you know, I, my memory would have been fresher then and I don’t, I don’t remember seeing her on that day.”
4078
"Yeah. So whether you stayed to watch the tennis for a bit or not, you would have then ended up back at your apartment.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"And getting ready for the, going for a meal.”
Reply
"Well we were very late that night.”
4078
"And Fiona had gone for a run.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
00:55:32
4078
"And then the, you arrived a little late. What can you remember of the evening then?”
Reply
"Well we arrived about, I don’t know, ten to nine, five to nine, which was very late. Err and the thing that I didn’t mention at the original err interview in Portugal was that I do vaguely remember seeing Matt, he was coming up because I think he made some joke about coming up to see where we were because we were so late, but he was actually on his way to check err check the children.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"Err so I do, I do remember that although I didn’t remember it clearly at the time err so we got down to the table err I think we ordered our starters.”
4078
"Do you remember who was there when you got there?”
Reply
"Well Matt obviously wasn’t because we we’d just passed him but of course I don’t remember this at the time, and I think in my original statement I thought maybe Gerry wasn’t there, but maybe he was, you know, I don’t know.”
4078
"You can’t be sure?”
Reply
"I can’t be sure because it’s not something that I think I need to remember, you know at the time, its not something you need to remember.”
4078
"No, and it was no different from any of the other nights.”
Reply
"That’s right.”
4078
"People are coming and going.”
Reply
"Yeah it was err we didn’t all sit in the same positions every night, you know, we (inaudible).”
00:57:23
4078
"Can you remember where you sat on that particular night?”
Reply
"Err yes I sat sort of with my back almost towards the, err kitchen bit and err Russell was on my right, Matt was on my left and I think it was then Dave and Gerry, Fiona, Kate, Jane and Rachael.”
4078
"So if you were to look straight ahead from where you were sitting, where would you be facing?”
Reply
"I’d be, I would be facing to the, err, the apartments would be over there, and I’d be looking towards the exit I suppose.”
4078
"Okay. I have got a plan here. It’s not in relation to the Tapas I’m afraid, but if you’d like to draw a diagram if it would help you then you’re very welcome to. This is just a, it’s a, it’s being referred to as DM2, that’s just an exhibit reference.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Then we said we all note what we’re looking at. I can’t get my bearings. There’s the pool.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"So this, sorry, I’ve got it the wrong way round for you haven’t I.”
Reply
"Yeah so that’s the entrance in there, I presume this is supposed to be the Tapas err…”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Restaurant there, yeah so I, I would have been sitting sort of looking sort of at that angle and then…”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Down there.”
4078
"And having not been there I can’t picture how, how the view is. Is it obstructed by things? Or would you be able to see people walking up and down?”
Reply
"What, up and down where?”
4078
"If I’m right…”
Reply
"This is, this is enclosed.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Err on, on that side, well when I say enclosed it’s got one of these Perspex sheets, a flexible one, whether it rolls up in the summer you know err…”
4078
"And when people left to do their checks on the children would you have, if you had have been looking, would you have been able to see them go once they’d left the Tapas?”
Reply
"What, once they’d actually left there?”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Well they’d have to come out here onto the, err that road so no, once, once they’d gone through there you wouldn’t, wouldn’t see them.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Because there was a wall.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"There’s wall, sort of walled area in that, and of course there was a footpath that went along there as well, which another way you could get into the apartments is the footpath there and you could err well the lower, the lower ones, Kate and Gerry’s had steps from this side up to their apartment.”
01:00:43
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"But the other ones, if you walked along that path there were gateways into the ground floor apartments there as well and in fact for us to get to our apartment we could have, instead of going that way, we could go that way. But as I say there’s a wall, there’s a wall all around there.”
4078
"Okay. So you’ve got to the Tapas and you’ve taken your place at the table, you say you’ve just passed Matt so he’s not there and you’re not sure, oh dear that doesn’t look very nice out there.”
Reply
"Oh my goodness.”
4078
"Can you see that?”
Reply
"Well it was forecast.”
4078
"Err, so you’re not sure whether Gerry or not was there when you arrived, and you say you would have ordered your starters.”
Reply
"Ordered the starters and err we had our, we had our starters and err we’d ordered our, our main course. Now I can’t remember, I know that err Jane err during that time, you see there, I can’t remember it was Jane or Russell when they went back to check on their children, Evie had been err sick, so I think err I think it might, might have been Russell that found her sick and he came back and I think Jane went back then and that might have been, yeah that must have been at the time when err no, I don’t know. I know they had to sort of err relieve each other because Evie had been sick.”
01:03:19
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"One of them would stay, or stayed in the apartment while the other one gobbled down their meal and then, so I think Russell, Russell must have gone back and let Jane come and eat her meal because by that time err we’d, we’d ordered our main courses and err Russell had ordered steak and of course he wasn’t at the table when it was ready and he said oh you know (inaudible) to go back, he’ll be back later, once Jane finishes hers err just keep his steak warm err so Jane sort of gobbled down her, her meal and went, went back so that Russell could come and have his dinner and, and this must have been getting on for, I don’t know, maybe ten to ten or something like that. Again I wasn’t looking at the time but just thinking to what happened is that err Russell came back to table and err they’d actually cooked him a fresh steak and he was just starting to tuck into it when err Kate had obviously gone back to check on the children, came running in you know, as far as I can recollect she said you know she’s gone, Gerry, Madeleine’s gone, screaming you know.”
4078
"How did she look?”
Reply
"Well I don’t know, frightened or absolutely, well, it’s very difficult to take in when something like that, you know, you’re just sitting at a table having what was a nice meal and err everybody just, you know, stopped what they were doing and just got up and Fiona said to me you know, I said what do you want me to do and she said you stay there in case err you know if Madeleine, because at that time we didn’t know what had happened because I think Gerry had sort of said to Kate oh she can’t be, you know. Err so I, I stayed at the table in case Madeleine had wandered off and she might come looking round the restaurant. Err this is when it gets all a bit confusing because I’ve no idea how long I, I stayed there. I don’t, I don’t think it was that long and I know that at one point, again, this wasn’t in my original statement, Dave did come back to the table and say can, can you just go back to the apartment, but all this is very, very, very vague and I know when I left the table I went, I did go into err Kate and Gerry’s err apartment, which was just absolute err just terrible.”
01:07:18
4078
"What did you see when you got there?”
Reply
"What did I see? Well Kate and Gerry, Gerry was absolutely, absolutely distraught, absolute, you know, I mean I’ve never heard a man make the noises he made, err and Kate, Kate was just err you can’t, you just can’t put into words how they were I mean they were just, I remember I went through into the room where err where Madeleine was sleeping and err and she said you know, somebody, you know, she’s been taken because she said that the shutters and that had been open, the window open. Err the twins were still asleep in the cot and I, with all the noise going on I don’t know how they slept through it which makes me think there was, they must have been err drugged with something.”
4078
"What could you see of Madeleine’s bed?”
Reply
"Well the, it was neatly turn, what I remember the cover was neatly turned back. I mean her bed was right in the err corner, you went in the door and it was, you’d have to look round the door to err see it, and err it was just neatly turned back and she just wasn’t there.”
4078
"Do you remember who else was around when you back to the apartment?”
01:09:40
Reply
"I think, well Fiona was there I think and err Rachael, I remember seeing Rachael and Gerry, I just remember Gerry sitting in the chair just absolutely, well roaring is the only word I can describe it as, just absolutely beside himself. The men, the other men I think were, had gone out looking, running around shouting Madeleine, and Fiona, Fiona wanted me to go back and err keep, I mean obviously everybody’s concerned for their own children as well and I think also there’d been things left at the table, like err cameras and Rachael’s jacket and things so I, I err, I think I went back to the table then to pick up err what had been left behind, I’m not sure, I think the monitor was there as well and one of the staff at the restaurant asked me what had happened and I just said one of the children has gone missing.”
4078
"Do you have any idea what time it was by that point?”
Reply
"No err you see I can’t remember how long I sat at the table before I went up to see what was going on.”
4078
"But when you went back the Tapas was still open? The staff were still around?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"Do you remember how much you’d drank that night?”
Reply
"Not much, we hadn’t been there very long really.”
4078
"I’m assuming it was wine at the table was it?”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Was there anything different that you drank?”
01:11:57
Reply
"Err (sighs) I don’t think so, I mean sometimes err some of us had a beer, me included, at the beginning of the evening, you know, before we started the meal, but after that it was err wine and the wine was free, you know, you could have as much as you like but despite what they say in the papers it was nothing like err you know we didn’t get drunk and outrageous or anything like that.”
4078
"Yeah, and as you say you’d only been there an hour really hadn’t you?”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"So you’re recollection or your, the way you saw things on that night wasn’t affected by alcohol? You…”
Reply
"Oh no, no not at all.”
4078
"Okay, so you’ve been back to the Tapas and you’ve collected bits and pieces that people have left lying around. You mentioned a camera, or cameras, had there been many photos taken that evening?”
Reply
"Err there hadn’t, I don’t think there’d been any taken that evening and I think err I can’t remember who, it was either, it was either Kate or err Rachael, it might have been Kate, who’d brought their camera because they hadn’t taken any photographs err at all in the evening. I think I was the only one that ever took any photographs in the evening and that was about the second night we were there, I just took pictures of everybody sitting round the table but I didn’t get any of he surrounding areas err but because we hadn’t been really sat there that long no pictures were taken.”
01:13:54
4078
"Can you remember what conversation was going on in the time before Kate discovered Madeleine missing?”
Reply
"Well again now, because err you know when you’ve got a group of nine people you’re not all talking…”
4078
"No.”
Reply
"In the middle of the table, you know, I would be, I was probably talking to Russell when he came back you know and talking about the fact he’d got a new steak, he didn’t get a warmed up one. Err no I can’t remember any conversation, I mean obviously one of the jokes err probably was the fact of err Russell rescuing Matt, being able to steer the boat to pick him up out the water, you know.”
4078
"Were you aware of Kate mentioning about Madeleine being awake the night before?”
Reply
"Err no, not at that point, I didn’t know anything about that.”
4078
"So that became…”
Reply
"That was…”
4078
"Known to you after Madeleine had gone?”
Reply
"That was after, because I remember err once I’d gone back to our apartment you know I sat, sat out on the veranda, I felt, felt quite helpless really, I mean I had to stay there and look after the two children and I just remember err Kate screaming, banging, hitting things and she was shouting, she says we’ve, we’ve let her down, you know, it was really very distressing.”
01:15:54
4078
"And how, I was just going to ask you a very leading question, then what happened after that?”
Reply
"What, after err…”
4078
"You were back at that apartment you say you just sat out on the balcony and felt helpless.”
Reply
"Yeah, you see there’s, there’s, I can’t quite get the timeline together because err at one point I also went out and had a walk round looking for her but I didn’t travel very far and I can’t remember at what point that was. It was obviously before I went back to the apartment to look after err Lily and Scarlet, now on that assumption I can only, I can only, I can only think that Fiona must have been in the apartment looking after them while I was out and my whole purpose of going back to the apartment was to let Fiona out for, to be with Kate.”
4078
"Do you remember where you went when you had a little look?”
Reply
"Err well I wandered about, because I’ve got no sense of direction, but I certainly wandered about err to where they had, there was road works going on but I didn’t feel too happy being about on my own at that err because it was quite late.”
00:17:35
4078
"Did you notice anybody else around when you were out?”
Reply
"No I didn’t, err and that’s what made it seem creepy, the fact I was wandering about on my own.”
4078
"What was the traffic like around your apartments and around the Tapas at that time of year?”
Reply
"I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say there was err a great deal of traffic, nothing that really made me think oh it’s you know, overrun by cars.”
4078
"And on the times where you’ve gone through the events that night, have you ever recalled any specific car or car noise, somebody opening or shutting car doors?”
Reply
"No, I just can’t, you know, I’ve gone over this before in my head and I just can’t think of anything.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Some, you know, you’re just not looking for…”
4078
"So when you’ve ended up back at the apartment, you described how helpless you felt because you were confined to your apartment, is there anything that you can describe about what was going on around?  I mean you’ve already described about Kate and the noises they made.”
Reply
"Well yeah the noise, the noise coming from err Kate and Gerry’s apartment, err I could hear lots of noises in the distance but this is when a lot of the other people in the area had been woken up to all the noise. I could hear err I guess it was the men you know in the distance, you could just hear them shouting Madeleine, err I don’t know how far away they were, they could have been down at the beach I have no idea because sound does travel at night and err I mean I, I just err it just seemed so unreal what was going on. Err I can’t, I mean I just, I just sat there for hours, I couldn’t go to bed, I couldn’t do anything.
01:20:43
4078
"Did you get any sleep that night?”
Reply
"Err well eventually err the twins were brought up into our apartment err and that again to me was err a very odd thing because they were fast asleep, they did not wake up.”
4078
"Were they brought up, so had they been taken out of their cots and brought up?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah. They were being carried, I think Fiona and Dave carried them up.”
4078
"And they were still not awake?”
Reply
"Still not awake, and the cots were, because they were travel cots they brought up, you know and err put in the living room and they were put into the cots and they just carried on sleeping.”
4078
"In your experience, obviously you’ve had children yourself and you’ve got plenty of grandchildren, and am I to understand that Sean and Amelie stayed in your apartment for longer than that night?”
Reply
"Err I can’t remember if they, no I think they just, just the one night, or two nights.”
4078
"But with all your experience of small children, you thought that was odd that they had not woken?”
Reply
"Oh yeah definitely. Well even err the noise that was going on in the apartment and they slept through it all.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"They were taken from their cots when they were brought up to our apartment and they would have to come out into the cold and I would have err I would have expected some sort of awakening.”
4078
"Yeah. So after the twins had been brought up did Fiona and Dave stay in the apartment with you?”
Reply
"Yeah well at that point Kate and Gerry came up as well and err because the Police had decided to close off the apartment, bit late in the day but you know, they came up and what we did we got the, there was mattresses on the spare beds in the room where Lily was sleeping so we got them and put them on the floor in the lounge beside the twins so that they could rest, if not sleep, err but by this time it must have been about half past four, five o’ clock in the morning.”
01:23:41
4078
"And how were they by that time?”
Reply
"Err exhausted and obviously they didn’t sleep, I mean they were out again at the crack of dawn.”
4078
"Had anybody else gone from the apartment to do any searching, from your apartment?”
Reply
"What, that night? Or…”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Well apart from the initial when, when the men were all err out searching I mean Dave was obviously one of them. I know there was a lot of err a lot of conversation going on about the fact that the Police, the Portuguese Police had not arrived err because I think the, err I don’t know if it was Russell and Dave that went down, only I think to reception and err I think they were also trying to get photographs of Madeleine printed and err I’m not sure if it was because of the, the delay in the Police arriving that they, I’m not sure who informed err Sky News of the event, you know a lot of that err I know Kate and Gerry spent a lot of time on the phone ringing people, they were just so, so beside themselves really.”
01:26:24
4078
"Once they arrived at your apartment did they stay there a while or do you remember them leaving?”
Reply
"What, that night?”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Err I think, I think, I think they stayed there because it was very late or you know early, early morning and Kate wanted a priest, they couldn’t find a priest which, well I won’t, I won’t say what her language was but I’m, you know, Portugal’s a Catholic country and err no priest.”
4078
"Mm. So the events in your mind of that night are you don’t have a concept of time checking because you were just sitting and waiting and wondering and feeling helpless.”
Reply
"Yeah, and I do know it was, it was very, you know, it was something like half past four or five o’ clock in the morning before we got to bed.”
4078
"Is there anything that we haven’t already covered about the Thursday, and particularly the Thursday evening, that you think it’s important to mention?”
01:28:09
Reply
"Well I, I you know, my memory would have to be jogged I think for anything specific because I can’t, you know, eleven months down the line.”
4078
"Yeah I know, yeah. I mean we have got your statement translated from Portuguese to English if, you’re welcome to, to hear parts of that, I can read parts out to you or let you have a look at it if it would help? It’s entirely up to you whether you want to do that.”
Reply
"Well, a lot of that I don’t, yeah I don’t remember but I think at the time I was interviewed err there was a lot of the things I wasn’t sure about and I made that quite clear.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"At you know, I was there on holiday, I don’t sit and watch people or look at my watch all the time so it’s very difficult.”
4078
"I think what we’ll do I think we’ll have a break because we’ve going quite a long time. It’s an hour and a half we’ve been talking for now.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"It’s nearly twelve o’ clock, so we’ll have a break. I’m aware that lunch normally arrives around half past twelve, it’s up to you whether you want to hang on and wait until after you’ve eaten before we carry on or whether you’d rather get on with this and have a later lunch, it doesn’t matter, it’s your choice, but for now we’ll stop this interview.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"It’s eleven fifty six.”
01:29:40
The interview ceased at 1156 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
SIGNATURE (Sgd)______________________________________________________
SLS



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