27 May 2009

McCann Case: Dianne Webster Rogatory Interview Part II


RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No
SVF126A
Person Interviewed:
Dianne WEBSTER
Number of Pages
30
Place of Interview:
Force Headquarters, Enderby
Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:
11.04.08
Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced:
1328 hours
Time Concluded:
1429 hours
Duration of Interview:
61 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s)
DC 4078 FERGUSON
Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present
None
Tape counter times
Person speaking
Text

00:00:03
4078
"Here we are, it’s now thirteen twenty eight and it’s the afternoon of Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight. It’s quite noisy this, it’s off putting sometimes. I’m DC FERGUSON from the Major Crime Unit in Leicestershire, and you are?”
Reply
"Dianne WEBSTER.”
4078
"And your home address, Dianne?”
Reply
"Fifty nine (inaudible) Road, Renhold, Bedford.”
4078
"And we’ve already been speaking this morning, obviously we’re talking about the holiday you had last year during which Madeleine MCCANN went missing and we’ve covered, we’ve done an hour and a half of talking this morning and you’ve told me as much as you can remember about the week. So just before we move on to asking the questions from the Portuguese, there are two things that I wanted to go back over with you, one thing was about the twins and how deeply they’d slept that night.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"And you said you wondered if they’d perhaps been drugged.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"I think it’s one of the questions that the MCCANN’S want us to ask anyway, but have you ever seen their children being given any medication?”
00:01:03
Reply
"Oh no, no.”
4078
"So how would you imagine that they may have been drugged?”
Reply
"Err by the abductor. I think Madeleine would have been drugged as well.”
4078
"Yeah, and the night when they were sleeping, did anybody try to wake them? Other than it being noisy and they were moved.”
Reply
"No, no I mean err when they, when they were brought up to our apartment err they had a sort of blanket over them and they were asleep on err I think it was David and Fiona that carried them up and they were just sleeping on their shoulder and obviously didn’t want to wake them up because the cots were being brought up and they were put, put, but you know my, my feeling is that they, I think a child normally would haven woken up under the circumstances.”
4078
"How were they when they woke up the following morning?”
Reply
"Oh fine, yeah.”
4078
"No different to normal?”
Reply
"Yeah, lively twins.”
4078
"Okay, the other thing was, you mentioned that when you went back into Kate and Gerry’s apartment immediately after Madeleine had gone missing, and I know you didn’t specify a time, and you went into the room and I think you made a comment that Kate had spoken to you about the shutters being, the window being open.”
Reply
"Yeah the shutters being up and the window open, yeah.”
4078
"Did you see that window at the time?”
Reply
"No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”
00:03:06
4078
"Okay, but Kate told you that she’d found the window open and, did she mention the curtains?”
Reply
"Err well at that point I can’t, I can’t remember, a lot, a lot of what I’m saying is perhaps some of what was said on the night or seen on the night and also what was spoken about later, the fact that you know she, it was the fact the door had, had slammed shut that drew her attention to something not being right in the room, you know when she went to check on the children.”
4078
"Right.”
Reply
"And err and that, that draught through the window had, had caused the door to slam.”
4078
"Is that the bedroom door that you understood it as?”
Reply
"The children’s bedroom door.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Okay, is there anything that you’ve thought about since we finished speaking before lunch that you want to mention now?”
Reply
"Err not really I think, I think questions would probably jog my memory better than me trying to…”
4078
"Yeah, okay.”
Reply
"To think things through, you know, sometimes a question will light a light somewhere.”
00:04:26
4078
"Yeah, and that’s why (inaudible) (laughs). I’ve got here the statements from the Portuguese and I must confess it’s a, I haven’t read them this week, I skim read them last night, but I thought if I just go through it and read…”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Read parts of it.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Just to see if there’s anything that may jog your memory. I’ll just summarise, basically you said to them that you were with your family really only in the afternoon and the evening because you were mainly reading, going shopping and doing other things. You had breakfast with your family one day and on the Wednesday, because it was raining, you were given, sorry you went for breakfast on the Wednesday because it was raining and there was a delay with the tennis. And this was taken on the Friday, the day after Madeleine had gone missing, okay, so it says with respect to yesterday you went to the beach with your granddaughters, your son in-law and your daughter, which you’ve recalled already.”
Reply
"Mm.”
00:05:32
4078
"You arrived there about quarter to four and left at about quarter past six when you went to the tennis court and you stayed there until about seven.”
Reply
"Oh right, so I did go.”
4078
"Straight after that you went to the apartment with your granddaughters where you son in-law David arrived after ten minutes, and in the apartment you gave the children a bath with the help of your son in-law. You left the apartment about quarter to nine in the company of your son in-law and daughter, and met up with the rest of the group in the Tapas. So yeah it must have been that day…”
Reply
"Yeah sorry I…”
4078
"Can you recall…”
Reply
"You see that has brought back to mind the fact yes we did bath the children together but I just, I’d forgotten that.”
4078
"Okay, if as I’m going through it you, you know it strikes a chord and there’s other things that you remember just interrupt me.”
Reply
"(Nods).”
4078
"Everyone else was at dinner, you clarify that you didn’t need to go back to check on your grandchildren because of the monitor.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"And you said that Gerald and Kate went to, it says went to the club regularly, I assume they mean went to the apartment regularly. It’s a little bit disjointed the way it’s been translated.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"To check if the children were okay, on one of these occasions Kate returned really shocked and nervous in a state of real panic and then obviously that’s when Madeleine had gone.”
Reply
"Mm.”
00:07:04
4078
"That’s it really for the first statement, it just says you didn’t know Madeleine very well but you describe her as being active, energetic, calm, good mannered, beautiful and attractive child, and then you made another statement a week later.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"On the eleventh of May, which was translated by Robert MURAT.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Who I must remember to talk about him in a minute.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"We’ll come on to that after this. It just sets the scene really and takes you on your journey, you were staying in apartment five H, it says that you said that in the mornings you would go to play tennis and afterwards you would go to the Baptista Supermarket to do shopping for lunch. On your return various families that comprised the group used to meet up in the PAYNE’S apartment to have lunch together because it was the biggest apartment.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"And after lunch the children used to sleep during the siesta, you’d normally take care of them whilst David and Fiona took part in leisure activities. There’s nothing here that really, on that page, that would jog your memory, it’s just in general. As far as you remember dinner usually finished around eleven o’ clock, at which time people would go back to respective apartments, and then they sort of make a thing about when asked you added that you went to your favourite restaurant in the company of your son and daughter in-law, favourite restaurant being the Tapas, and they must have asked you directly if somebody had come to call on you to get you down to dinner. I suppose they’ve asked that because of what Matthew had said about (inaudible)…”
00:09:23
Reply
"Yeah well at that, that was the point you see, at that time I don’t, I didn’t remember having passed Matt on the way but you know as time’s gone on and, and err I think Dave, Dave or Fiona mentioned it and that’s, I did then remember. As I say things like that at the time are irrelevant to me, they’re not...”
4078
"Yeah, well in any case he never arrived at your apartment to come and call for you did he?”
Reply
"No, no, no we passed him on the way down.”
4078
"Then it says that the whole group had met up in the restaurant, you don’t remember but you think it possible that perhaps Matt and Gerald were not together with the other members of the group in the restaurant. You said earlier on when we spoke that you couldn’t picture Gerry being there.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"It may have been a point where he’d gone off to check.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Err…”
Reply
"Which would really tie in the time if you’re allowing half hour intervals, I mean Kate and Gerry were the first to arrive there so…”
4078
"There really isn’t anything here down that’s gonna help.”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"It’s all, you know, even at that early stage there wasn’t a lot more that you were able to say. Did you check the blind at Kate’s apartment on the window that obviously the relevant window? Did you go out and check the blind?”
Reply
"Oh the shutter?”
4078
"Yeah, sorry.”
Reply
"Yeah I mean I can remember going out there and in fact there was me and somebody else, I don’t know who else there was, to see if it could be raised from, from outside, I didn’t spend too long err trying it.”
4078
"And were you able to?”
00:11:32
Reply
"I think, I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted. But everybody was in such a panic really.”
4078
"They mention what the lighting in the apartment was like when you went after Madeleine’s disappearance in Kate and Gerry’s apartment and it says here that you thought that the lights would have been on because you don’t remember any darkness. With respect to the bedroom previously occupied by Madeleine you didn’t remember whether the lights were on, but you knew that when you’d entered the bedroom the twins were still asleep…”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"In their respective beds, which made you think that the lights must have been on, but because you could see that it couldn’t have been completely dark so there must have been some light coming into the room.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"They asked you if anyone had used a car on holiday.”
Reply
"No.”
00:13:10
4078
"Nothing more really that’s gonna help.”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Okay, we’ll move on then to the questions that the Portuguese would like us to ask you.”
Reply
"Right.”
4078
"I might need your phone in a little while.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Now I’ll go through them all even though you’ve already answered some of them but with the ones that you’ve already answered I’ll say we don’t need to cover that because we’ve covered it. So what time did you arrive at the Tapas bar in the evening? You’ve already said it was about five to nine I think.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And you arrived with Fiona and David.”
Reply
"Fiona and Dave yeah.”
4078
"And you’ve already said that you think everybody else was present other than Matt who you’d just seen.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Going to check his children, and you can’t picture whether Gerry was there or not.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Were you aware of any arrangements that were in place for the children to be checked? Well that really wasn’t a concern of yours because you didn’t have direct responsibility for any of the children.”
Reply
"That’s right yes.”
4078
"And did you leave the table at all during that dinner on the third of May?”
Reply
"Err only to go to the toilet I think, probably.”
4078
"And then it says, where did you go and what time did you go? Well that’s not really relevant. (Laughs).”
Reply
"(Laughs).”
00:14:35
4078
"How long were you away from the table and why?”
Reply
"That’s a very personal question (laughs).”
4078
"And how many times did you leave the table? Right, did you leave the table, did you leave the tale with Russell O’BRIEN at all? Oh I know why that says, because these questions relate to everybody and obviously Matt went with Russell on one occasion so they specifically asked Matt.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"You didn’t check on anyone else’s children.”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"And it wasn’t planned for you to check on anyone else’s children.”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Therefore you didn’t have any cause to pass by Madeleine’s bedroom window and you didn’t therefore notice the shutters. During your stay in your apartment where you, Fiona and Dave were, did you ever leave the doors or windows open?”
Reply
"Err no but err after Madeleine disappeared I, I checked the err some of the windows in our apartment and they weren’t locked, we hadn’t, we hadn’t thought of checking them you know, when we arrived in the resort to check the windows and the cleaners must have left them unlocked.”
4078
"So it would have been possible to, were they slide…”
Reply
"They were sliding.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"But I mean they were quite err, the aperture to get through was quite narrow, you know, if you imagine a, a window cut in half, one half slides, you’re left with the small err quite a small opening so I don’t think a large person would get through.”
00:16:14
4078
"Would that have been the same for the apartment where Madeleine was sleeping as well?”
Reply
"Mm. They weren’t large windows.”
4078
"Because when you’ve not been there and seen these things you don’t think, I’d never thought about the size of the window before.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"I assumed it was quite a large window that someone would be easy, it would be easy for somebody to get in and out but that, that’s not the case.”
Reply
"Well I don’t think so, I mean err a fat person wouldn’t get through put it that way.”
4078
"Right. Have you got your phone handy? Or, there’s three or four numbers here that, if you’re anything like me they won’t mean anything to you without your phone.”
Reply
"I’ll just switch it on.”
4078
"I’ll read one out to you that I think you probably will know what it is. It’s o, one, two, three, four, seven, seven, two, three, one, five.”
Reply
"Yeah that’s my home number.”
4078
"That’s your home number. Presumably you’ve been calling your husband?”
Reply
"I call my husband err the night err the night it happened, must have been early hours of the morning.”
4078
"Twenty five to one.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Yeah. There’s another number here, again, I don’t know if this will mean anything to you because I’m not sure it’s a telephone number, I think it might be a network type number for browsing, the internet browser or something. Its o, seven, nine, seven, three, one, zero, zero, six, one, zero.”
Reply
"Doesn’t ring any bells. That sounds like a mobile number doesn’t it.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"Err…”
00:18:06
4078
"I don’t think that you will have that in your phone because on the information we have it’s a web browsing number or a platform number or something, which I don’t fully understand, but I think its to do with you being abroad.”
Reply
"I don’t do any web browsing on my phone, so.”
4078
"It may be that you’ve received, well in fact this, you’ve received a text message from this number.”
Reply
"Oh I wondered…”
4078
"On May the third at half past seven in the evening.”
Reply
"Half past seven in the evening?”
4078
"What it could be, what I’m guessing it could be, is perhaps a text message from your network provider, with you being abroad, maybe they’d sent you a text or something. Well anyway, suffice it to say don’t worry too much about that number because I’m sure that, I don’t think you’ll be able to…”
Reply
"You see I did get a text from err my daughter in New Zealand, it’s not the same number. The number I’ve got here is err o, six, four, two, one, six, four, o, eight, eight, five.”
4078
"I haven’t got that number here. The other number then, well, there are two more numbers, I just wanted to see if you have them in your phone. Its plus four, four, or zero, depending on where its dialled from, seven, seven, four, zero, three, zero, four, one, one, five.”
00:20:03
Reply
"You see I don’t recall people’s mobile numbers so its (laughs).”
4078
"No. I don’t either. It ends in one, one, five that one.”
Reply
"Yeah it ends in one, one, five.”
4078
"And they rang you at quarter past eleven in the morning on the fourth of May, so the morning after Madeleine had gone.”
Reply
"Ah so that might have been Louise, my other daughter.”
4078
"It quite possibly was because that would match with what we have.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"You’ve got two Doctor daughters have you?”
Reply
"Yeah, well the one in New Zealand’s a Doctor as well but she’s a PHD Doctor, she’s a scientist. Yeah that’s, err Louisa NATES, yeah my middle daughter.”
4078
"Okay, and do you remember why she called?”
Reply
"Err because her dad, well I would have phoned Tim to tell him what had happened and he I think probably would have got in touch with Louise.”
4078
"There actually are quite a high number of calls to and from that number that day. I’m sure they would all, all to have been to do with Madeleine’s disappearance.”
Reply
"Yes, yeah definitely.”
4078
"And the last number then Dianne is o, seven, eight, nine, nine, eight, one, eight, seven, one, three.”
Reply
"One, three. Who else would I have called?”
4078
"Do you know a Dave MIDDLETON?”
Reply
"Dave MIDDLETON? (Shakes head).”
4078
"No?”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Do you know anybody in Doncaster?”
00:21:48
Reply
"Err no, but Louise, my middle daughter, she’s married to err Simon ALDRIDGE who, his company err Doncaster, I’m sure it’s around Doncaster where his business is.”
4078
"What’s his line of work?”
Reply
"They’re err it’s a roof tiler.”
4078
"That’s the one yeah.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Yeah. Sandtoft Roof Tiles.”
Reply
"Sandtoft yeah that’s it.”
4078
"The person that’s bought the phone or registered the phone must be called Dave MIDDLETON. Okay, so that’s your son in-law then?”
Reply
"Yeah. Well not the Dave MIDDLETON, he’s not.”
4078
"No.”
Reply
"No. My son in-law’s…”
4078
"Simon ALDRIDGE.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"That’s it for the phone numbers.”
Reply
"That’s it for the phone numbers.”
4078
“Yeah, which leaves us only with questions that Kate and Gerry want us to ask everybody.”
Reply
"Right okay, I’ll switch this off now shall I?”
4078
"Okay, thanks.”
00:23:08
Reply
"Did you want my mobile number by the way? I’ve got it written down there.”
4078
"Oh yes please, yeah.”
Reply
"That’s the only way I can (laughs).”
4078
"So it’s o, I’m just reading it out for, its my part in the film (laughs) o, seven, seven, nine, o, three, two, seven, eight, five, three.”
Reply
"Okay.”
4078
"Thank you. Right so these, bare in mind these are Kate and Gerry’s questions so some of them seem a little awkward, now it’ me trying to put a different slant on things.”
Reply
"Okay.”
4078
"It’s obviously what they want asking.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
4078
"For how long have you known Kate and Gerry MCCANN?”
Reply
"Err I first met them at Fiona’s wedding which was in September two thousand and three.”
4078
"And what kind of relationship is there between you and the MCCANN couple?”
Reply
"Err well I mean I only know them because they’re friends of err Fiona and Dave’s, but err I’ve always got on very well with them, very nice couple and, you know, I couldn’t say anything bad about them at all.”
4078
"Have you ever visited them at their home address with their children being present?”
Reply
"Err no I’ve never visited them at, at home. The only time I’ve been near their house is when we were going on holiday when we, we left…”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"There, from their house.”
4078
"And the next question is, have you already spent holidays with them? Well I know the answer to that, you haven’t.”
Reply
"No, no.”
00:24:34
4078
"How often would you meet Kate and Gerry during the holiday time period between the twenty eighth of April and the third of May?”
Reply
"How many times?”
4078
"Mm, how often, generally. I mean you said it was Kate in the mornings at tennis.”
Reply
"Well yes I mean err and then we’d all see each other in the evening but then we’d also see each other at certain times during, during the course of the day depending on err what everybody was doing.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"On that day.”
4078
"And how often would you see their children, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie?”
Reply
"Well again err on a daily basis but a lot of the time when I saw them, because they were at kids club during err during the day, not as, I think morning and afternoon I’m not sure, err most of the time when I saw them was err when they were having high tea and err then afterwards in the playing area, and sometimes round the swimming pool err so yeah I would say I’d see, I’d see them err on a fairly regular basis, yeah.”
00:26:02
4078
"And have you ever felt that you had a reason to become somehow concerned about the children?”
Reply
"No, never.”
4078
"When was the last time you saw Madeleine?”
Reply
"(Sighs) You see I don’t remember seeing her on the Thursday because I didn’t go to the high tea, err but I was apparently in the play area afterwards but I can’t recall that.”
4078
"Okay.”
Reply
"Err so from what I can recall, the last time I would have seen Madeleine would have been the Wednesday at the high tea probably.”
4078
"And we’ve kind of already covered this one, when did you see Kate and Gerald on the Thursday, May the third? You’d seen Kate in the morning at tennis I think.”
Reply
"Yeah I saw Kate in the morning at the tennis and err...”
4078
"And then you said, I know I’ve told you now that it was likely to have been that day when you saw the men playing tennis.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"You can’t recall exactly?”
Reply
"I can’t no.”
4078
"And obviously at the evening meal you saw Kate and Gerry.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"Again, what time did you arrive at the Tapas restaurant? Well you’ve already covered that. And who was already there? You’ve already covered that. What were Kate and Gerry doing by the time you arrived?”
Reply
"Well my recollection is that, that err I thought, I thought Gerry wasn’t at the table but I can’t be a hundred percent sure. Err but I would have said that, you know, they were just sitting at the table waiting for everybody to arrive so we could order our, start ordering our food.”
00:28:05
4078
"And did you speak to them?”
Reply
"I would think so, I spoke to everybody but, you know, I don’t…”
4078
"You can’t recall the specifics?”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"What was their behaviour like?”
Reply
"Just normal, you know, having a good holiday.”
4078
"And again we’ve already covered this, who left the table during the meal and why? Well you say there was Matthew, Russell and Jane comings and goings, and you don’t recall Gerry being there sometimes, so.”
Reply
"Well I know that, I know that err every night, I mean the children were being checked on very regularly but I obviously wasn’t paying attention as to who was going where, when, and I wasn’t even particularly aware that sometimes they would check on each other’s children, i.e. if they were going to check their own they would listen to other people, the doors of other people, but I, I was totally unaware of that.”
4078
"I think…”
Reply
"There’s no reason why I would know that.”
4078
"Yeah. I think from what I’ve learnt this week it’s actually the Thursday night was the first night that had actually…”
Reply
"That that had happened.”
4078
"Yeah. I’m not wishing to labour this point but did you see Gerry leaving the table during the meal? At what time? How long was he absent? You can’t really (inaudible)…”
Reply
"I can’t.”
4078
"No.”
Reply
"You know, it’s…”
4078
"Can you say was he behaving or acting differently when he returned?”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Did you see Matthew leaving the table during the meal? I’ll gloss over these because I know you can’t specifically remember but I’ll ask them in case you want to say anything. At what time? For how long? What did Matthew say when he returned? Was he behaving or acting differently when he returned? And the same questions for Russell and then for Kate. Did you see them leaving the table? What time? How long? What did they say when they came back? Were they behaving or acting differently? Obviously with Kate’s quite clearly she was behaving and acting differently when she came back from her check.”
Reply
"Oh when she came back and Madeleine had been taken, yeah she, at that point she’d disappeared.”
4078
"Do you know what sort of time that was?”
00:30:27
Reply
"Well no, again, you see I didn’t, I didn’t look at my watch, I’m only going on err I mean Dave would have been more aware of the time than I was.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"But we’d finished, we’d had our starters and we’d err we’d finished our main course err Russell was the only one that hadn’t had his main course because he, he’d been absolute looking after his daughter while Jane had her dinner and err Russell sat down to start eating his and it was only shortly after that that Kate came running up.”
4078
"And I know I asked you before but what did she look like when she came back in?”
Reply
"Well she didn’t even come right in, I don’t think she came right in to the restaurant she was just err so distressed that everybody just got up from the table and, and went, apart from myself, well I stayed behind in case err Fiona said you know stay there in case she’s wandered off.”
4078
"Then it says, what was Kate’s behaviour like? But you’ve said she was distraught. And were you shocked by what she said?”
Reply
"Well yes, I mean sometimes I still can’t believe what happened.”
4078
"I get that sense from you that you’re still really…”
00:32:02
Reply
"It’s like something you read about you know, err you never suspect a child being abducted from its bed.”
4078
"Then the next question is what we’ve recently talked about, did you get into the MCCANN’S apartment? Yes you did, and you’re not a hundred percent certain of the time.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"Did you get into the bedroom when the children were asleep? And again, yes you did.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Can you describe what you saw in that bedroom?”
Reply
"Well the two, the twins were both sleeping in their cots, which were sort of in the middle of the floor kind of like they were side by side, err I think there was a bed underneath the err window and Madeleine’s bed was (sighs) to the left as you went through the door against the wall.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"And err the covers were just neatly folded back like, and she’d been, just been lifted. The bed was not err disturbed or crumpled in any way.”
00:33:25
4078
"When you saw the twins did you see which way they were lying?”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Did you notice anything unusual about them?”
Reply
"Err no, not at the time but I, in, in retrospect you see I’m, when I think of all the noise that was going on in the apartment and the way they were when they, err were brought up to us I would say they were a bit dopey.”
4078
"Yeah. And then it says what did you do next? Well you went back to your apartment to look after your granddaughters and at some point you had a little look around but couldn’t remember whether that was…”
Reply
"That would have been before I went back to the apartment. I can, I can, I can only assume that I went back to the apartment to let Fiona, to release Fiona so she could come and be there for Kate.”
4078
"And then you went back to the Tapas bar to collect the belongings that had been left.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"It says did you take part in subsequent searches? Well you didn’t have the opportunity to really…”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"Because you were confined to your apartment. And on realising Madeleine had not been found in the first ten minutes how did Kate react? Well you’ve already covered that before, she was distraught.”
Reply
"Absolutely.”
4078
"As was Gerry, which was the next question. And what did you think about their behaviour considering that Madeleine had gone missing?”
Reply
"Well their behaviour was of distraught parents, err you know you can’t put words into how they were.”
4078
"Mm. What did you do between ten thirty in the evening and ten in the morning of the following day?”
00:35:30
Reply
"Well for many of those hours after I left err after I’d left the apartment of Kate and Gerry and gone back to our apartment I sat on the veranda for a, well it was hours really.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"And err eventually when err Dave and Fiona came back and I can’t remember if they came back carrying the twins or whether they came back first and said the twins are coming up here I can’t remember, err but the twins appeared err in our apartment, they were put down to sleep. That was when the Police had cordoned off the apartment and err Kate and Gerry came up.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"And then a lot of the time was spent with them, frantic really, on the phone to, to family you know absolutely distraught.”
4078
"Apart from David and Fiona and Gerry and Kate and the twins and your girls, who else did you see during that time? Sort of ten thirty in the evening to ten o’ clock the following morning.”
Reply
"Well I think there was err some of the staff from the Ocean Club, the err I seem to remember err one or two of them being in the apartment initially, I think that was when they were err putting up the cots and stuff like that. Err I know when I got up in the morning err which I think might have been about seven o’ clock I don’t know, I’m not sure, Kate and Gerry had already left the apartment, they were out looking again as far as I know. Err we obviously had the twins for that day, we didn’t have them two nights, I just checked that.”
00:38:08
4078
"Right. So up until ten the following morning then you were pretty much in the apartment then?”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"Did any of the other members of the group, Rachael, Matt, Jane, Russell, did they come to your apartment at all that night?”
Reply
"Again I can’t remember.”
4078
"Okay, and then it goes on to say, who did you talk to? Well that’s…”
Reply
"Well that whole scenario it is, it’s just a blur because something’s happened that your brain just doesn’t, doesn’t accept.”
4078
"When did you finally leave Portugal?”
Reply
"Err seventeenth of May.”
4078
"And how many times did you meet with Kate and Gerry between Madeleine’s disappearance and when you left?”
Reply
"Err we saw, saw them quite often. Err I know that during the day we didn’t see much of them because they were busy obviously with err the Police and err counsellors and we all had some counselling, err but yeah we, we tended to, to see them at least everyday I would think, and I know that Fiona and Dave, it might be late at night that they would, I would stay in the apartment and they would go and see Kate and Gerry, because I think night times were really bad.”
4078
"Do you think you were showing normal behaviour for parents who had lost a child?”
00:40:08
Reply
"Well I’m not sure what normal behaviour for losing your child is, but if it’s suggested that they were putting on some sort of act that is totally ludicrous. There was err absolutely no, nothing in my mind that would suggest anything untoward.”
4078
"And during the time that you were on the holiday did you notice any situation where Kate and Gerry were talking to any unknown person?”
Reply
"Well I think the only people that, that I err had seen, well Gerry in particular, talk to were err people that he’d met during the tennis, you know, that were also staying at the resort. Err that’s as far as I know.”
4078
"There was nobody who didn’t seem familiar to you that you saw them with?”
Reply
"Well no, I mean there were obviously people he’d met because err he went to different tennis lessons to, to the ones I went to so I think he met one or two people through the tennis that he’d perhaps bump into, you know.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"On the rounds.”
4078
"And this question’s a little bit, a bit of an awkward lengthy question, so err I’ll read it as it’s written because it’s obviously how Gerry and Kate have formed it. Is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth? Basically is there anything else that you can think of that needs to be mentioned?”
Reply
"What, in relation to err…”
00:42:07
4078
"It just says is there any supplementary explanation that you consider pertinent or relevant to establish the material truth? So is there anything that you know that you haven’t previously said that, or that you have possibly said before but you don’t think anyone’s picked up on that we need to be aware of and certainly that might make a difference in our search for Madeleine?”
Reply
"What in relation to what I think might have happened to her? Or…”
4078
"Mm, yeah.”
Reply
"Err I mean I, my feeling is the person that err Jane saw err that it was Madeleine that he was err carrying. I also have a feeling that, that because of the, the time between Gerry having checked on, on the children and her being taken, err and I think I mentioned it to Gerry, you know, at the time, well not at the time but days later, that the abductor may well have already been in the apartment when he went to check on Madeleine.”
4078
"That could have made sense couldn’t it when you look at the time, time scale of things.”
Reply
"Yeah, I mean because it happened so, there’s such a short err time and I also think that the children would have been sleeping soundly when Gerry saw them because maybe by that time they had been err drugged with, I don’t know, I mean I wouldn’t know whether there’s anything, chloroform had been put over them.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Because I also think that, that err from Jane’s description, the way Madeleine was being carried, despite what the papers say well she was not covered in a blanket, it was a very cold night and I think the cold would have woken her up.”
00:44:18
4078
"Mm, and Jane describes her feet as being very relaxed.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And just flopping (inaudible).”
Reply
"And limp, yeah. And I think if you’re carrying a child err, although she was a small child, it’s still you know a three year, nearly four year old child, I don’t think they could have carried them very far like that so I would suspect there was a vehicle err or a house she was being transferred to.”
4078
"Are you familiar with the area where Jane says she saw the person walking to, (inaudible), not walking to.”
Reply
"Well yeah I could see that it was along the top of the road.”
4078
"And having not been there, again, what is there there? Are there houses or is it baron? Or…”
Reply
"No, no I think there are houses err I mean that, that was the road I think we had to take to err go to the Millennium restaurant but as I didn’t go there very often I wasn’t familiar with that...”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"That route. Most of the time if I went anywhere it was down at the Supermarket or down to the beach, which was the other way.”
4078
"Right, so if there had have been a vehicle parked there, you wouldn’t particularly noticed anything different…”
Reply
"No.”
4078
"That night?”
Reply
"No.
4078
"The, was there anything else you wanted to say?”
00:46:02
Reply
"Well other than the fact that she was definitely targeted and I think we made it easy for them by doing the same thing everyday, every night.”
4078
"Mm. And finally I want to come on to talking about the re-enactment that you’ve been asked to attend in Portugal, and I want you to tell me what your feelings and thoughts on that are.”
Reply
"(Sighs) Well to be honest I don’t understand why they want to do this sort of nearly twelve months down the line err is it something that’s going to be televised sort of worldwide? Or is it purely going to be for the Police? Because if so err because it’s a holiday area you won’t have the same people around that were around err when it happened and lots of the apartments are holiday apartments and a lot of them are closed up, were still closed when we were there anyway. It was very quiet err so I don’t really know what their hoping to achieve by it.”
4078
"Under what circumstances would you be happy to go back to do the re-enactment? Well, not happy to, but prepared to go back?”
Reply
"Well I mean I would do anything if I thought it was going to find Madeleine, I really would.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"But I have to question err the sense in doing that now.”
00:48:03
4078
"I know, when we spoke on the journey here and the boss spoke to you briefly at the beginning of the day and he explained to you that this is your opportunity to say anything that you’ve been wanting to say, so I’d just like to give you the opportunity to have your say if you like.”
Reply
"What about how it’s been conducted, the err…”
4078
"If there’s anything you feel strongly that you’d like to convey yes.”
Reply
"Well I just felt err I just feel very disappointed with the, err Portuguese Police in the way that they conducted the initial err investigation. Err I think it took something like a week before we were fingerprinted and a similar time before they sent the sniffer dogs into the apartments that we were in, err I know the dogs had been there a while but I don’t, I’m not quite sure what they were doing at that point. Err I, I just feel that they, they, I think they say the first hour or something is the, is it the first hour in an abduction I think…”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Is the important time, or the first twenty four hours I’m not sure, but I also realise that err by the time we discovered Madeleine missing it, if it was when Jane saw her being abducted, which was err about I think quarter past nine or something, that err she may well already have been well on her way to being out of the country.”
00:50:08
4078
"Mm. Is there anything else you wanted to say?”
Reply
"Err…”
4078
"You indicated that you’d been frustrated at the lack of information that you’d had back from the Portuguese, the lack of…”
Reply
"Well yes I mean err…”
4078
"Contact.”
Reply
"There have been stories in the press for, for several months now about them coming supposedly to re-interview us all and nothing ever happened and then you know suddenly it is happening but we weren’t really given any formal notice from them.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"And likewise with the re-enactment, err it’s only what we’ve been told about, nothing official’s been err put to us at all. I don’t know really whether, whether a re-enactment would, unless it’s being televised.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"Would have any, whether it’ll have any effect on it at all. And I think it would also be quite distressing for Kate and Gerry to go through that.”
4078
"Yeah. I’m just going to pop next door and ask if the people monitoring this have thought of anything that we’ve forgotten to cover.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"In the meantime carrying on thinking to see if there’s anything else you want to, to say.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And I’ll leave this recording though.”
Reply
"Okay.”
00:51:45
DC FERGUSON exits the interview room.
00:52:27
DC FERGUSON re-enters the interview room.
4078
"Is there anything else that you’ve thought of that you wanted to say?”
Reply
"Not really, as I say I’m just disappointed that the investigation failed at the beginning.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"You know, common sense to somebody like myself who knows nothing about how Police work or anything, common sense would tell me that you know they should’ve closed the borders, closed the apartment immediately, and in fact one of the women that did the initial fingerprinting on the shutter outside, and there was pictures of her in the paper, I mean she wasn’t even dressed appropriately, she had on jeans and a bomber jacket. So it was contamination probably from the Police themselves in the apartment.”
4078
"You also, when we spoke earlier, expressed a sense of frustration about the fact that you’d all been banned by the Super (inaudible).”
00:53:36
Reply
"That’s right, yes.”
4078
"And you’d been very restrained in what you said.”
Reply
"Yeah, yeah.”
4078
"And yet you felt that you’ve been very badly let down because of what’s come out.”
Reply
"Well that’s right I mean the only err the mere fact at, looking at the press err for, for quite, what seemed quite a while, they didn’t know who I was, I was never mentioned by name, I was just mentioned as an older, an older person err and then when my name did appear in the, in the British press I knew that err the leak had come from the Portuguese Police because my name was spelt correctly. Most people spelling Dianne would put one N in it and err mine’s got two N’s in it and it was spelt correctly.”
4078
"Mm.”
00:54:24
Reply
"Err and I think err when we were on holiday err not the Portuguese holiday but when my husband and I were on holiday, we’ve got a boat and we got sailing every year and err when I was on holiday I had a, a text message from one of my work colleagues because err somebody had called my work place asking, somebody from Portugal, err called my work place asking to speak to me and my colleague, or this, this woman wanted my err mobile number and err my colleague wouldn’t give it to her and err my colleague obviously advised me of this, gave me the woman’s name and where to contact her but I think it was the press. She didn’t say she was the press but I think she’d been trying to contact other members of the group as well and err again she knew where my work place was, this had only, could only have come from the Police because nobody else would know, so I found that quite shocking and I’ve never spoken to the press at all, not here. They’ve been to my door and knocked, not in the same way that they’ve err sort of visited the others but err because I live out in a village.”
4078
"Mm.”
Reply
"They’ve come to the door and I have not err well they’ve come quite often when I’m not there, they’ve spoken to my husband once and err I had a chap come one night, err nine o’ clock at night and I just sort of opened the door to him, I was in the house by myself anyway, and I just said no. So I have never ever spoken to the press about anything.”
00:56:19
4078
"I know you feel like you’ve been let down because there’s been so much in the press.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"From the others…”
Reply
"Well I, I feel, and its not from myself because there’s very little about me but err you know, I feel the way that the other members have been err sort of slagged off really by the press, it’s just totally unacceptable, and the, you know, some of it they have definitely been fed this information from Portugal.”
4078
"There was one point on the questions that I overlooked and I’ll just ask you now for the sake of being complete. Did you see Jane leaving the table during the meal?”
Reply
"Well only, only I think, only this much that when she had to eat her meal and go err when Evie had been sick she had to go and relieve err Russell so he could come and eat his meal, but prior to that because err when, when Jane saw this err man carrying a child of course we didn’t know about Madeleine missing at the time.”
4078
"No.”
00:57:41
Reply
"So it, it wasn’t, wasn’t relevant.”
4078
"Do you have a recollection of Jane leaving to do that check on the occasion when she saw the man?”
Reply
"Well again not really because I’m not paying attention because there’s lots of to’ing and fro’ing between them all, all night.”
4078
"Yeah.”
Reply
"I’m not really err paying attention.”
4078
"So the only specific recollection you have is when Jane left so that Russell could come and eat his food?”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"After Evie had been poorly, do you know any, have you any idea what time that was? Presumably it’s, you say that you assume Russell got back to the table (inaudible).”
Reply
"Well I mean Russell, by the time Russell had got back to the table err he’d err they’d err they’d cooked another steak for him, it didn’t take very long and he literally I suppose just had about two bites of it when err Kate came running, so that must have been about, I don’t know, getting on for ten o’ clock I would imagine because, well just working out the time that we had our starters and our main course and we were all finished our main course, it was only Russell err that had his to eat. We would have been waiting normally for him to finish that and order desert.”
00:59:24
4078
"That’s it I think, I’ll, obviously I’ll have to come and apologise if we have to do another interview but I can’t think of anything else that we need to cover. What happens next is I need to go and prepare a quick statement, I don’t know if the others have explained to you but because we’ve done it on DVD, ordinarily we would transfer that into a statement and write out a statement and get you to sign the statement, because they’re going to be fully transcribed…”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"I’ll prepare a statement that basically says that you’ve been interviewed at these times by me.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And that what you said during the interview was as true and as accurate as it could be, and then I’ll just get you to read through that and sign it. So that will complete the process.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"I’m sure the boss will want to have a chat with you again.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"And so…”
Reply
"Well if anything else does come to mind I mean I sure will let you know.”
4078
"Yeah, and also you know, I’ll be taking you back anyway later but I’ll make sure that you’ve got my current contact details.”
Reply
"Mm.”
4078
"You can get in touch if you have any problems as well with the press…”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"Or anything like that.”
Reply
"Yeah.”
4078
"That’s it then, I shall stop this interview, it’s now twenty nine minutes past two.”
01:00:29
The interview ceased at 1429 hours when the tape recorder was switched off.
SIGNATURE (Sgd)______________________________________________________
SLS




2 comments:

  1. Mrs. Webster said relevant things, like the sleeping twins.
    I think she could have been the only one of the group who did not know the truth.At least at the beginning.

    ReplyDelete
  2. What she had to say about the sliding window being small was interesting and confirms what has been said before - it would have been virtually impossible for someone to escape through that window carrying a child. I felt the police woman was leading her in some of these questions, though, giving the answers for her instead of letting her answer for herself. And it is a bit ironic that she criticises the police about the fingerprinting when she went outside and fiddled with the shutters just after Madeleine was allegedly abducted!!

    ReplyDelete