Portuguese targeted by racism

by André Pereira

Approximately 30 Portuguese citizens are leaving their workplaces at the Lindsey refinery, which is owned by petrol company Total, due to the xenophobic protests from workers in Northeast England that went on a strike against the hiring of foreign labourers. As far as Correio da Manhã was able to establish, eleven of those Portuguese workers have already returned to Portugal, and another eleven are scheduled to arrive today. The rest will remain in Immingham, near Grimsby, waiting for the situation to be solved.

Contacted by Correio da Manhã, the Portuguese workers fear that the situation may become unsustainable, with the ongoing protests from the English. "Since we arrived, on the 18th of January, the English have been making gestures for us to go away, to return to our country. They tell us that the work posts are for English labourers and not for foreigners", the same worker reported, adding that "more Portuguese workers were supposed to arrive".

The situation started three days ago, when hundreds of English workers from the Lindsey refinery started a strike against the foreign labourers that had been hired by IREM company. Among the strikers, the slogan is "British jobs for British workers", a phrase by prime minister Gordon Brown. Yesterday, the movement spread throughout the whole of Great Britain, with xenophobic protests in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Derek Simpson, the secretary general of UNITE union, has already appealed for Gordon Brown to intervene, saying that "the situation is a powder barrel waiting to explode".

Portuguese Embassy has received no complaints

Contacted by Correio da Manhã, a source at the Secretary of State for the Portuguese Communities asserted that the Portuguese Embassy in London had received no complaint from the approximately 30 Portuguese workers at Lindsey refinery, in Immingham, in Northeastern England. "We have no knowledge that the Portuguese Embassy received any request for assistance from any Portuguese citizen in Grimsby", it said, guaranteeing that the situation is being followed with special attention.
Details
400 thousand in the United Kingdom - The Portuguese community in the United Kingdom is above 400 thousand, according to numbers that were divulged by the Portuguese Embassy in London.

50 thousand emigrated - In 2006, approximately 50 thousand nationals left Portugal for the other countries of the European Union, according to numbers from the EU statistics cabinet. Twenty thousand emigrated to Angola, Switzerland, Andorra and the United States, other important destinies.


source: Correio da Manhã, 31.01.2009

Marcos Aragão Correia Digging his own Hole?

Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer searches for Joana's corpse, murdered by her mother Leonor Cipriano and uncle, João Cipriano

Aragão Correia sent a fax last week to the GNR of Portimão where he requested for the authorities to search in an area pointed out by Leonor Cipriano as the place where her brother João had buried the eight year old girl's body.

Leonor last Tuesday, at the Odemira prison changed again the version of the events surrounding her daughter's murder; she affirmed that "the assassin João Cipriano told her that he had buried the girl's body in the hills of Figueira" in an "abandoned house".

The representative of the mother of Joana in the alleged assault involving current and former inspectors of the Judiciary Police, to obtain a confession from Leonor Cipriano - though Leonor had signed the confession previously to the alleged date of the assault - stressed in that letter that its constituent 'guarantees' the statements of her brother [and uncle of the girl] in those days "which succeeded the disappearance [September 2004].

[Leonor Cipriano] recalls that it was mentioned by the same (...) an abandoned house, although she does not remember the specific circumstances in which the murderer did what he did, nor if it was in the presence of others or not, and if he was referring to concealment of the body of the girl or not."

João Cipriano has already stated that it's all a lie.

The area and houses mentioned by Leonor according to the PJ were thoroughly searched and nothing was found.

Even so, according to Correio da Manhã Marcos Aragão Correia and an unnamed friend, along with "a labrador dog trained to hunt" took the private initiative of digging a few holes with a hoe and a shovel in some of the abandoned houses in the hills on the Northern area of Figueira.

Nothing was found.

Tit for Tat: Maddie Case & Freeport Case

British are the most unhelpful in European Judicial Cooperation

The decision of the Central Department for Penal Investigation and Action [DCIAP] in not allowing the lift of the banking secrecy of José Sócrates is also fundamented with the English Government unhelpful attitude in the case of the disappearance of the girl Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz, Algarve.

This thesis has been evoked by the magistrates of that department, who even consider to be "offensive" the behavior of the British authorities, the very same who didn't show any willingness to investigate the eventual pressures of the Prime Minister of that country when Maddie disappeared.

Another situation which has caused some nuisance it's precisely the fact of the English - who are the most unhelpful in the ambit of the European Judicial Cooperation - who have requested the lift of the banking secrecy. This "attitude" was seen as a 'provocation', since the lifting of the secrecy of the bank accounts is precisely the one to which the British Police offers more resistance.

According to Correio da Manhã, the fact that the British authorities have not yet complied [fully] to the requests sent by the Portuguese authorities [in 2005] under the scope of the same investigation is reason enough for the British letter rogatory to be seen with bewilderment.

Source: Correio da Manhã, paper edition, 30 January 2009

To say the same to the English

Cartoon by Henricartoon

by Frederico Duarte Carvalho*

This issue of the English domain over the Portuguese is an ancient thing. A very ancient one, and part of our History. To help you understand what's going on, let's say that it started with the Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of 1373, which evolved into the Treaty of Windsor (1386). There was also the dubious Methuen Treaty (1703) and the disastrous Convention of Sintra (1808) which allowed for "the retreat of the French troops, on board of English ships, carrying their weapons, luggage and the product of the plundering done in Portugal". Nevertheless, it was Eça de Queirós and Ramalho Ortigão who figured the English out, and traced several portraits of the English colonisers in the book "The Mystery of the Sintra Road", like this acid image:

"What fecund transformation did England operate on India? The transformation of poetry, of imagination, of the sun, into something dull, trivial and full of coal. I was in India, gentlemen. Do you know what the English transformers did? The translation of India, a mysterious poem, into the mercantile prose of the Morning Post. Under the shadow of traditional buildings they place bales of pepper; they threat the great Indian race, the mother of ideal, like Irish dogs; they navigate tourist boats on the divine Ganges for three shillings a head; they force the traditional dancers to drink pale ale and teach them to play cricket; they use gas to open squares in the sacred forest; and on top of all of this, gentlemen, they dethrone ancient kings, mysterious ones, almost made of marble, and they replace them with fellows with sideburns, ridden with debt, red-faced, that are either forced at Botany-Bay or become governors of India! And who does all of this? An island, half made of ide, half of roast-beef, inhabited by spring chicken in high collars, beer containers!".

In fact, if there's something that people around here really enjoy, it's a nice march against the Britons (which in our national anthem later changed into "cannons"). But the fights are reduced to the vain glories of ball games. Politically, it seems that the English still win. The last person who affronted them was Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ coordinator in the McCann case, who was removed from the process on the very same day that Gordon Brown accepted to sign the Lisbon Treaty. The former PJ member criticised the national passivity towards the English by recalling the letter from Marquês de Pombal to Lord Chatham, in 1759, in his book "The Truth of the Lie": "(...) I'm aware that you cabinet has taken an empire over ours, but I'm also aware that it's time to end that. If my predecessors were weak enough to concede you everything that you wanted, I will never concede you anything except what I must. This is my final resolution; regulate yourself accordingly (...)".

We are now forced to realise that we don't have a prime minister who can say the same to the English...


source: 'Para Mim Tanto Faz' blog, 29.01.2009


* Journalist, author and blogger

Freeport Case: Who is the Master?

The English Police and the Serious Fraud Office consider that the Portuguese Prime-Minister is guilt of having «solicited, received, or facilitated payments» in the scope of the Freeport licensing. more in Visão

"The English royal family is reported to have a large stake in Freeport, which was taken over by the US conglomerate Carlyle in 2007." more in The Independent.

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Many thanks to my dear and talented friend Mr. Himself at The McCann Gallery

McCann Case: Russell James O’Brien & The lost DVD Interview

Rogatory Interview Courtesy Of Duarte Levy

Russell James O’Brien was questioned on the 8th of April from 9.55 a.m. until 8.18 p.m., divided into 5 distinct time periods (9.55 – 11.30 a.m., 12.01 – 12.50 a.m., 2.06 – 3.55 p.m., 5.15 – 6.56 p.m., and 7.37 – 8.18 p.m.). Officially, all the video images of this day were rendered useless because the video camera didn’t work… which means that Enderby police wants us to believe that, even during pauses, they never verified if the interrogation was being recorded correctly. This was the official version, the one that was offered to the Portuguese authorities. Nevertheless, the truth of facts is different, and Russell O’Brien was questioned again on the 10th of April; this time the camera worked. * Comment By Mr. Duarte Levy

I have previously made my statement to the Portuguese Police in relation to my holiday visit to Portugal in April-May 2007. I stayed in the resort of Praia Da Luz and was there at the time of the disappearance of Madeleine Beth MC CANN. I had travelled to Portugal with my wife Jane TANNER, and our two daughters Ella and Evie, also travelling with us was our friends Matthew OLDFIELD, Rachael MAMPILLY and their daughter Grace. We were due to meet our mutual friends over in Portugal David and Fiona PAYNE, their two daughters Lilly and Scarlett along with Fiona’s mother Dianne WEBSTER, and Kate and Gerry MC CANN and their three children Madeleine, Sean and Amelie. We arrived in Portugal on Saturday 28th April 2007.

On the 8th April 2008 officers from Leicestershire Constabulary interviewed me in order to clarify certain points and in order for me to provide further information where possible. The interviews were visually recorded, however I understand that due to technical difficulties the equipment failed to record. I have been informed that these questions arise from an official request from the Portuguese authorities. I am aware that my statement will be subject to the Portuguese Criminal Code in addition to English Law.

I have been informed that this statement has been made from the monitoring notes which were taken at the time of the interviews being conducted.

I have been given the opportunity to refresh my memory from the statement made by Jane TANNER (my wife) and I have been allowed to see these documents, this was done in the presence of DC 1578 GIERC. I wish to add that Jane’s statement covered our routine from the 28th April 2007-2nd May 2007 quite comprehensively and my original Portuguese statement referred to Jane’s statement, this was therefore a good point of reference for me.

The following statements are answers given in response to the questions asked of me during the interviews, in the order that the questions were asked. (page 1)

We have been away before as couples and have had various conversations about going away as families, the planning took place in January 2007, this was around the time that Jane and I were moving with the girls to Exeter- 3rd January 2007.

It was Fiona and David PAYNE’S idea to go away and Jane and I were more than happy for them to do the organising as we were busy with moving house. We had all been away on Mark Warner holiday’s before, and they seemed to be a good destination. There were emails between us as a group, mainly exchanged with Matt and Dave, things weren’t so straight forward as we were all living in different parts of the country which made planning things very difficult. I am aware that David had made various requests to the Mark Warner Company and one of which was that all the apartments were to be in the same block, and preferably all to be near by to each other.

I am aware that Matt had replied to an email sent by Dave, and by mistake had included Mark Warner on the same reply I recall that it said something along the lines of ‘Go Dave Go’. Dave is quite certain about what he expects from things, and is quite aware of his consumer rights and entitlements although it seemed to be quite trivial to me at the time. We were aware from the various emails that the resort was quite spread out, and Dave strived to keep us all together. I feel that this may have been construed by Mark Warner staff as having been annoying and the staff member receiving it may have been annoyed by it, I feel that this could be looked upon badly.

We flew out from Gatwick airport having stayed the night with Matt and Rachael at their home which was near to the airport. The others flew out later the same day from East Midlands Airport.

This was the first holiday that we had been on with the MC CANN family we had been away previously with the others in the group. We had been due to go away as couples to Majorca in 2005 but Jane had found out that she was pregnant days after we had booked the holiday, as far as I am aware our places had been given to another couple I believe by the name of Tara and Stuart GOLD.

I’d describe our relationship with the couples as very good, I had met David PAYNE at Medical School in 1989 and we had stayed in Halls and Student Houses together, I met Fiona in 1993/1994 and was best-man at their wedding in 2003, we all went out to Tuscany in Italy for their Wedding. I recall that Matt and Rachael were there as were Gerry and Kate. I met Matt in my first year as a Doctor this was in around 1994, again I was close friends with him we lived in the same house, and I was best-man at their wedding in 1999. I have remained friends with Matt he moves around a lot and has worked in several places and countries.

I would say that our relationship with Kate and Gerry MC CANN is not as close as with the other two couples, I first met Gerry when he was speaking at a conference in Atlanta in 1999, and I recall that we both had interest in the same aspects of cardiology. I recall that we exchanged emails with each other to discuss various aspects of our research. Gerry moved to the Glenfield hospital and worked in the same department as I did but I was based at the Leicester Royal Infirmary, at that time Gerry was my equivalent at Glenfield and a voice at the end of the phone- I’d say this was in 2001-2002.

I’d say that we have known Kate and Gerry on a more personal level since 2002-2003 when both Kate and Jane were pregnant with Madeleine/Ella. At the beginning of their pregnancies they had been given a similar due date, although Madeleine was born about a month before (page 2) Ella. Our friendship increased through Fiona and Dave, we would often see Kate and Gerry at their house on occasions.
I recall that on one occasion Kate and Gerry visited us with Madeleine, I think that the girls must have been around 9months old as they were crawling. Other than that I don’t recall them visiting us again, I know that we have been to their house for Madeleine’s 1st and 2nd birthdays but I would say that we hadn’t spent any considerable time at the MC CANN’S home.

In relation to Kate HEALY/MC CANN I have only really met her since Madeleine was born, or through our meeting with Dave and Fiona.

Dianne WEBSTER is Fiona’s mother we obviously met her through Fiona and Dave PAYNE, we have been friends with them for some time meeting them at Fiona and Dave’s house. We have been for trips out on their boat I’d say we know Dianne quite well.

As far as I am aware there were no others due to go to Portugal, I think that Dave and Fiona had thought of asking others, but Jane and I thought that nine adults were enough. I recall that Dave and Fiona had mentioned another couple by the name of Dave and Fiona BURLING who live somewhere in Maidenhead but I am not entirely sure whether or not they were actually asked or invited. I am aware that Dianne was a late edition, but I am not sure when she was booked onto the holiday.

In relation to there being any group hierarchy I’d say that that wasn’t at all the case, Dave, Matt and I have all been close friends since Medical school and see each other as equals, I don’t know Gerry quite as well but there is no problem with him fitting into the group. I am aware that Dave and Gerry know each other very well.

The flight out to Portugal on the Saturday was early it was around 08:00am we all sat together on the flight and I recall that is where I first saw Jez WILKINS, he was sat near to Matt on the aisle. I recall that a lot of people were speaking to one and another as people do on the plane, we landed around 10:00am and waited for the baggage, on our arrival we were met by Mark Warner staff.

We were taken out of the airport and out onto the buses waiting nearby, we sat in the middle of the coach on the right hand side. I recall that Charlotte PENNINGTON who was a nanny at Mark Warner was also sat on the bus- I believe that she looked after Fiona and Dave’s kids. It was reported in the press that she had seen Kate and Gerry at the airport but I don’t see how that would have been possible as I don’t believe they had arrived by then, I believe that their flight arrived an hour or so after ours did.

Whilst we were on the bus we were given welcome packs and from what I recall we had been allocated room numbers and the packs I do not believe that it included the apartment keys (5D) but I cannot be sure. I recall that there was also a map of the area.

When we arrived we parked near to the apartment reception and we were taken to our room around lunchtime. I recall sending a text message to Gerry and Dave to say that we had arrived and also a text to a friend from Germany- who had tried to ring me, I had sent a message to tell them I was away on holiday.

I recall we all went to the pool as the kids wanted to swim, it was a windy and cold I’d say it was mid afternoon time, I remember that the PAYNE’S and MC CANN’S arrived at some point whilst we were all at the pool. We all went to the welcome meeting at the Tapas Bar on Saturday and I think that we may have gone to another one but I cannot be sure. (page 3)

I recall that they spoke about where to eat, the nannies introduced themselves and I recall that there were various people there from the sporting activities recruiting for their events/activities.

We all went to the Millennium restaurant that evening including the children it was a 10minute walk this was around 18:00-18:30hours, it was at this meal that Matt began to feel quite unwell. We didn’t stay out late so that we could put the children to bed as it had been a long and tiring day, Jane and I didn’t stay up particularly late as we all felt tired too.

The respective apartments were as follows Dave, Fiona and Dianne 5H, empty apartment 5C, Matt and Rachael 5B- which was a smaller apartment and Kate and Gerry were in 5A. I believe that the apartments were allocated to fit in with the number in each individual group- as I said previously the allocations appeared to be done prior to our arrival and may have been done following Dave’s emails to Mark Warner.

I recall seeing Jez around the Mark Warner complex we didn’t speak much I hadn’t met him prior to being on the plane, I can’t recall him being on the coach from the airport but I think that he must have been on there as he was staying at the same resort. I don’t know what apartment he was staying in at Mark Warner, but I think it was quite near us. I’d like to point out that we had had the occasional conversation on polite terms as well as seeing him at tennis.

Sunday 29th April 2007 I had booked into water-sports on the Saturday but I don’t think they operated on Sunday. I can’t recall exactly what I did on what day but I had booked to have windsurfing lessons and to do a bit of sailing. My recollection now is a little poor due to the lapse in time I got up around 08:00-08:30am we had breakfast at the Millennium restaurant, we went down to the beach, played a bit of tennis- but as I’m not a brilliant player I wasn’t all that bothered about playing tennis.

We were booked into the Tapas bar, we ate there that night initially it was booked as a one off I think by Rachael as far as I am aware the table was booked for 20:30hours. I am aware that Rachael asked to eat there each night for the remainder of our stay this I believe was booked on the Monday morning as a block booking- the time was agreed by the group. Matt was unwell and I recall I went to see him, he had been suffering from a stomach upset so I can say that there were only eight adults at the Tapas bar that night.

The good thing about the Tapas bar was that it was quite near to the apartments, and the walk to the Millennium was quite far away, the Tapas bar was also used by the kids club for afternoon tea.

Kate and Gerry weren’t so flexible about meal times as their children were in more of a routine, as were Dave and Fiona, where as Jane and I are slightly more accommodating and our children have been used to staying up late on occasions. The bookings were made for the following week 20:30hours after the children were settled in bed.

In relation to the childcare routine it was a collective decision made as a group, Dave and Fiona used their two way child monitor to monitor their children. Kate and Gerry made a physical check on their children. Matt and Rachael made a physical check on Grace. Jane and I also made a physical check on Evie and Ella.

I’d like to point out that we knew that there was NOT a baby listening service, this had been picked up before our departure as there had been other inaccuracies in the brochure picked up by Dave, I believe that the brochure inaccuracies would be recorded in emails by David PAYNE. (page four)

Jane and I made checks between courses, and would generally alternate the visits, Kate and Gerry did their checks by the clock. I’m aware that initially we would only check on our own rooms but on occasions we often listened at other apartment doors or windows, and made checks on some visits.

On Sunday I recall I checked Kate and Gerry’s apartment as well as Rachael and Matt’s. I had taken Matt’s keys and I believe that their door was deadlocked the same as ours and that I would have needed to turn the key two times. We kept our shutters down, and the patio door was closed I am not sure whether theirs was the same. I recall that Kate and Gerry’s apartment was accessed by the patios door which was left closed and unlocked. I recall that their front door was accessed from the car-park access was easily gained to the apartment from the poolside.

All the meals were included in the booking as was a limited choice in drinks, if anything else was ordered there may have been a need to have made an additional payment. I recall that orders may have been put onto a bar bill and paid at the end of the week.

Sunday we left the restaurant early around 22:00hours the service was reasonable and quite quick, times didn’t vary all that much we may have had a drink at the bar before going back to the apartment but I cannot be sure.

Generally of an evening we would drink beer or have a few glasses of wine, generally three to four glasses, I can honestly say that no-one in our group was ever drunk. I’d say that generally we had five-six bottle of wine between the group of nine, it was a similar amount most nights.

Monday 30th April 2007 I recall I may have done some windsurfing this was just after I’d dropped Ella off at the kids club near the Ocean Club and Evie at crèche near to the Tapas bar. I may have done some shopping but I really can’t be certain, I recall Jane, Kate and Gerry playing tennis. We didn’t eat out at lunchtime we generally ate with Rachael and Matt and this was in our apartment or theirs, as well as at David and Fiona’s. After Madeleine disappeared we all began eating lunch at Dave and Fiona’s apartment.

I think in the afternoon I may have been out with Matt, I had wanted to spend time as a family but Ella wanted to go to the kids club. Monday to Wednesday I can say that the days were all very similar and it is difficult to distinguish one from each other. I know that on one of the evenings either Monday or Tuesday I stayed in the flat with Evie as she wasn’t well Jane brought my meals over to me this was mentioned in my first statement. I feel that this is more likely to have been Monday as I feel that we were all together as a group on Tuesday- nine adults. I believe that this was when the Trivia quiz had taken place.

I recall going for a sailing lesson on Tuesday and Jane went to play tennis, we collected the kids as usual around lunchtime, Kate and Gerry had lunch in their apartment as they did on most days. I went out in the afternoon to the beach I was with Matt and as far as I can recall we went out kayaking. The children were in bed as usual 19:30-20:00 they appeared to be well asleep and checked that they were prior to leaving the days were generally uneventful up until Thursday 3rd May 2007.

On Wednesday Rachael was ill, we stayed out later than normal, after our meal we sat around and then moved into the bar area we stayed for around 45minutes to an hour, this was our only ‘late night’ of the holiday, I recall we had a cocktail. Checks were made as usual we would alternate completing the checks and this was done every half hour or so. I listened at (page 5) the MC CANN’S apartment and believe that this was around 23:00hours, on all occasions the children were ok. During the week I checked on some occasions and listened at others.

On the 3rd May 2007 I saw Madeleine in the morning a couple of times this was when I dropped Ella off. I took the kids up to breakfast at the Millennium club and walked to the Ocean Club I was late getting Ella there, the kids were having a great time at the kids club and all appeared to well.

I went to the flat with Evie, whilst she was resting I read a book. When she woke up we went outside to watch Jane play tennis I saw Madeleine at lunchtime I can’t recall if Jane or I collected Ella it’s all a bit hazy now.

I recall that Jane had been having a tennis lesson also there was Kate and Rachael. We were watching some children have their lesson this was before lunch. I recall that one of the guests a guy from Southampton came over his daughter was playing tennis, he wanted to take a picture but expressed to us how uncomfortable he felt in doing so- he said something similar to feeling like a pervert or a dirty old man when taking a picture of his own child, I do not wish to implicate him. I recall that the child was of a similar age to Madeleine and Ella.

I recall that Madeleine and Ella had had a similar lesson the day before.

We agreed that in this day and age taking a photograph of your own child you shouldn’t be made to feel uncomfortable, it was a horrible coincident. I would like to stress that I do not think that this man had any involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance. I feel that it was a haunting coincidence.

Ella went back to the kids club and I went out with Matt sailing, I Jane was looking after Evie. Whilst I was out sailing with Matt he fell in the water, I had to sail back to save him this made the day quite memorable that and it being the best day weather wise. When we came back Jane was at the beach with the children, I recall that at some point around 17:00-17:30 Kate was out running she was dressed in her full running kit which was a vest and shorts- one item was grey and the other pale blue but I cannot say which way round.

When Kate ran past on her run she didn’t speak to us, but she did acknowledge us as a group.

We didn’t stick to our usual routine so much that day the children stayed with us and ate their tea at the bar by the beach called the Paridiso. Everyone was there at the beach except Kate, Gerry and their kids. I collected Ella from the Ocean Club before she went up to tea at the Tapas Bar, I cannot say whether Madeleine was there or not.

It was a warm day, good afternoon I recall that I went up to the social tennis around 18:00hours with Matt I think David went to the apartment and then up to Gerry’s. I played tennis for around an hour to an hour and a half, Dan the tennis coach was also present, as were some other male guests and Gerry we played a mixture of singles and doubles.

The kids came up with Jane, Fiona and Rachael from the beach, but not the MC CANN’S children I presume that they were at the apartment. They stayed for a short while before going back to the apartment to be bathed and put to bed. I got back to the flat around 20:00hours as we were running late we had to take the rackets back with us. The children were in bed Jane went down to the restaurant around 20:30-20:40 hours I remained in the flat for another ten minutes or so waiting for them to settle down. I went down to the Tapas bar the adults of 5H were running late as usual, David and Fiona are always late and it is a standing joke in our group. Around 21:00hours Matt was going over to check on Grace so he said he would chase (page 6) the Payne’s up as we were all waiting to order and we were conscious that the waiting staff wanted us to place our orders. I believe that he listened at the windows on his way to find the PAYNES having gone to check on Grace.

The evening was the same as evenings before Kate and Gerry were behaving entirely normally.

Following Madeleine’s disappearance and subsequent search we had made a time line together this will show what time Gerry left the table. I don’t recall at what point but it was around 21:05 Gerry left the table was only away for a little while, Jane also went to check the children and was gone for a minute or so. The children were ok she didn’t mention anything unusual. After we had eaten the starters I needed to go to the toilet so Matt and I decided we would go and check on the children. We walked together I recall that the light was fading I went straight to 5D I could hear Evie was murmuring. I went into the apartment and Matt went into his. I went to the toilet to urinate and then started to clean up Evie and change her, Matt came into my apartment and asked if I needed any help. It was getting darker by this time. I said to go back and tell Jane that Evie was unwell.

I sat in the lounge and read to Evie Jane came back having eaten her meal. We stayed together in the apartment for around 5minutes. I went across to the Tapas restaurant this would have been around 21:45 hours, Jane remained with Evie. The group joked about Jane having been to relieve me they were all in good humour. Kate left the table there was nothing significant about her leaving but I think it was a similar time to my meal arriving. I think that this would have been around 22:00hours, I didn’t have a watch or phone to check the time but Rachael did ask for the time and 22:00hours was mentioned. I know that she didn’t leave straight after me arriving back as the waiters had agreed to cook me a fresh meal.

Kate returned through the reception area standing at the end of the path near the stones, and yelled over towards our table in the Tapas bar I cannot recall exactly what she yelled but it was along the lines of Maddy is missing. We all got up immediately except Dianne who remained at the table. I am fairly sure on the time, I have put a great deal of thought who may have been watching us during the week, but all appeared quite normal to us, the people who would have known our routine would have been the waiters. I can’t recall any other people dining in the restaurant at the time, there would have been people in there but as we ate quite left they would have left during our meal.

We went over to Gerry and Kate’s apartment I didn’t go in to the apartment. I can recall it would have been a similar layout to ours, although the furniture and décor was different to ours as the apartments are leased. I didn’t go into the bedroom on this occasion, but I’d imagine that there are wardrobes in there as there are in ours. When I had been into the apartment on previous occasions it had been dark.

During the interview I drew a seating plan of the Tapas bar and who was sitting where which I have previously marked and produced as my exhibit.

On the evening I was wearing brown jeans/cord style trousers, a pale blue stripe top, and Jane had taken my jumper which was blue. The nights were quite chilly which is why Jane had my jumper I am quite use to the cold.

I wish to reiterate that I joined the group at the Tapas bar 20:45 I went down to the table alone, everyone was there except the PAYNE’S and Dianne. (page seven)

When I went to check the children I went to my flat first then Matt walked on to his flat 5B, I believe that he was gone for around 60-90seconds. Then he checked on the MC CANN’S children having left my apartment. This was the final check before Madeleine was noticed missing, nothing appeared to be unusual and there was nothing that suggested we were being watched.

When Kate raised the alarm she didn’t get to the table as the area was all enclosed, she was at the start of the path she shouted across to us. We ran out through the reception we were all in a panic some people went into the flat I stayed outside, I then conducted a quick search of the immediate area with Matt, Dave and possibly Gerry. We searched a cul-de-sac area which I would describe as being a passage way at the front of the block on the car park side. We went on to search the gardens and patios. Then we went downhill towards the centre. On the second search we went to the shopping centre and then towards the tennis courts. We searched around the back of the tennis courts.

On my way back I bumped into Dave he said to me this is bad this is really bad they’ve not found her. We searched down to the beach I searched the East side, and Matt and Dave the West side. We went back to 5A it was clear that panic was setting in Gerry was on the phone to a family member back home, for someone that is such a strong character he is usually so calm, decisive, confident. He was lying on the floor in hysterics, he had a high voice crying like a baby, I didn’t know what to say.

By this time we had been joined by Ocean Club staff I am aware that Fiona and Rachael had spoken to Jane.

Jane has been made to feel frustrated, like she is a sympathetic witness, a fantasist and a liar. She feels that the P.J do not believe her.

I went to Jane she was with Rachael I hugged her she said “I knew there was something odd, I knew it was strange”. “I watched someone carrying a child”. She played it down Jane’s character is to be calm, composed but she wasn’t herself at this time. She was adamant that she had seen the man, and that the child could have been Madeleine. She feels there is a good chance she witnessed the abduction.

I know that Kate and Gerry were NOT involved at all, I saw Jane she was shaking she had a terrible realisation the she may have seen Madeleine being taken away. We have been crying out for these interviews I have never seen Jane like this before.

We have coped- somehow we have been keen to be there to put across our feelings, we have struggled in silence, what Jane saw was suspicious she is NOT a liar, a fantasist we as a group have nothing to gain by giving false evidence or creating false leads.

I was asked who I spoke to? People in the bar at the shopping centre. Older groups of Portuguese people near the front, and a female possibly member of staff from Mark Warner.

We tried to find a picture of Madeleine Kate checked her camera but these were mainly of her at home or not such a clear picture. We found a picture of Madeleine but we couldn’t print it off. Cat or one of the nannies said that they had a printer and took the camera away to get some photos copied. A copy of the photo was given directly to the Police, someone from the Mark Warner staff made a poster- but I do not know who that was. (page eight)

I am not sure who informed the authorities or media of Madeleine’s disappearance but Gerry may have informed the authorities along with Matt. As for the media I think Rachael called a friend who works at the BBC.

I loathe the media even more so now, I have a very low opinion of them Dave was also seen keen to make use of the media and think that he may have constructed an email- but I am not sure whether that was actually sent. I know that there were attempts to contact the British Consulate.

Searches- I searched mainly on my own, although we were all close by to each other. The searches weren’t really planned no plans were drawn up and there wasn’t really any particular structure. There may have been places that we missed, it was hap-hazard and panicked. It wasn’t well organised.

Leave doors/windows open- We didn’t leave doors/windows open. We did sit outside on Saturday along with other days on the patio, we wouldn’t have left it open once away.

Checks on children- Checks made on children, we had the routine already outlined in this statement.

How often- four-five checks per evening. Kate and Gerry checked by the clock, where as Jane and I checked between courses, I don’t have any recollection of the MC CANN’S children crying had I have heard them crying I would have checked on them.

Confirmed his mobile phone number.

Number ending 678- belongs to Susan HEALY mother of Kate MC CANN, believes that the call recorded was made by Fiona Payne who had borrowed his phone due to her battery being flat.

Number ending 842- belongs to Brian HEALY again cannot account for call doesn’t believe that he made or received it and may have leant the phone to Fiona.
Number ending 801- his mother text message asking how holiday was going and checking on their welfare.

Landline number- his parents home spoke to parents again to check on welfare as distressed and upset by Madeleine’s disappearance.

Number ending 603- Anthony NICHOLLS colleague, call made wanted to make him aware that he would be away for a longer period, but as he was also away conversation cut short, and called another colleague.

I wish to clarify that I have only met Susan and Brian HEALY previously at Madeleine’s birthday parties. I then met them after they flew in following Madeleine’s disappearance.

Clarified light beginning to fade, when Jane left the table reasonable amount of light, aware that there were street lamps in the area. Route back from table- shutters didn’t look at them, but would have noticed if there was anything suspicious or untoward- felt that it was a loaded question. Inner route would take less than minute and outer route just over a minute.

Clarified who made the time line handed to Portuguese officers- I had written it- both copies, in consultation with Dave and Gerry. It was written 02:00-03:00hours in Gerry’s room. It was my idea a form of gathering information and putting things in order. This was after the searches which were again conducted around 01:00-02:00hours. (page nine)

Shown a typed time line typed on a lap top borrowed from female tennis coach Georgina, seven adults there when time line drawn up, then shown to the MC CANN’S afterwards for them to make any alterations or additions. Was written after the first weekend after Madeleine’s disappearance this was following David PAYNE’S suggestion. It was checked against initial draft, it was a group recollection and with the groups agreement. The document was typed on the laptop USB flash disk which was handed to the PJ when I went to complete my statement.

Clarified who Dan was - Tennis coach from Mark Warner, saw him in car when conducting the search - he was in a car, and had other occupants but cannot say who. He went on to search area which was in darkness.

Comments - I am troubled by MURAT’S denial of being there on the night of Madeleine’s disappearance and assisting in the translations. This has troubled me he would have an alibi had he have been honest about being there. The statement given in Portugal are true and accurate, other people put MURAT there on the night one of those being Sylvia head of house keeping. I would like to point out that I do not wish to change the statement given to the PJ but have reservations that the time may have been inaccurate and it may have been the following morning when I saw him.

Our statements have been previously given in good faith I am positive that he was there on the night. What I said in my statement was right.

To attend for re-enactment, no great willingness to attend suspecting Kate and Gerry or the group is very very wrong. How do we all move on we have been unable to defend ourselves in the press, we have been threatened, the press just magnify things, our professional status has been threatened I have had the press ringing my ward, Spanish reporters running around the hospital. It is unbearable. There are various websites set up about us all we have been reported, on our lives are no longer our own. It appears to us that the PJ are trying to nail someone in the group or Kate and Gerry for this, to us they are now doing too little too late.

This all should have been done in the first 10-14days.

At least now there is a genuine attempt to further their investigation, we have had so much adverse publicity, we are not hiding anything. We would only really be willing to attend now if Kate and Gerry’s Arguidos status was relinquished, and the media be shown that they are NOT to blame for this, none of us are.

This now needs to be managed in a way that is mutually agreeable to both sides now, we don’t trust the environment we don’t feel that we would be safe going over there. We are willing to help with the investigation, Jane is not willing to go back and I don’t think that we would be able to cope with it. Jane is calm and composed and able to deal with things, but how is she expected to cope with all the slating in the media.

I cannot stress enough that we as a group have not been involved in Madeleine’s disappearance, we have only ever tried to help the PJ and investigating officers with the investigation into her disappearance. If we are to be expected to return to Portugal for this re-enactment then we will need certain assurances.

I wish to add that this statement may appear at time to be disjointed but these are my responses to questions posed by Leicestershire Constabulary Officers on behalf of the PJ and the MC CANN family.

This statement is made by myself and is true to the best of my knowledge and belief.

Signed: RUSSELL OBRIEN Signature witnessed by: K HOLLIDAY


Source: Duarte Levy

Cipriano Case: Mystic Lawyer Requests Seaches

Leonor Cipriano's Lawyer, sent a fax to the GNR of Portimão in the late afternoon of yesterday, calling for searches to be done in "an abandoned house up there, in the mountains of Figueira," where the mother of Joana [convicted for murdering Joana] says that her brother João Cipriano buried the the corpse of the eight year old girl.

Leonor and João were sentenced for the murder of Joana.

The GNR informed the lawyer Marcos Aragão Correia that he should have sent the fax to the Judiciary Police, however they communicated the transmission of the fax to the department of the PJ in Portimão.

Gonçalo Amaral, former coordinator of PJ responsible for the investigation, assured to the CM that all old and abandoned houses in the north area of Figueira were target of searches, including one that was at the time indicated by [the murderer] Leonor Cipriano.

Source: Correio da Manhã

Quote of the Day - Looking back on the Madeleine case

"Kate and Gerry did have two mortgage payments made by the fund, but this stopped when they were made formal suspects. I really want to stress that they have never asked for one penny from the fund – despite taking un-paid leave to try and find their daughter. Seriously, even when they were in Portugal, they never asked for one penny."

Esther McVey* in Liverpool Daily Post, 5 November 2007


*Esther McVey is a long-time friend of Kate McCann and was spokesperson for Madeleine's Fund from its launch in May 2007.

Esther and Kate first met in 1986, when they were both 18, at the North East Technical College in West Derby, where they were studying A-levels together.

She joined the board of Madeleine's Fund on 20 June 2007 and continued her role as spokesperson for the Fund until her resignation, announced in January 2008.

Ms McVey has remained-tight lipped as to the reason, or reasons, behind her resignation - a rather ironic position, considering her desire to become a Member of Parliament and given her former and current roles in the media/PR.

Her own website, on which she once displayed an online petition in support of the McCanns, now contains no mention of Madeleine McCann at all.

Accounts Report: Madeleine's Fund Leaving No Stone Unturned Limited

These accounts © Crown copyright 2003

The material featured on this site is subject to Crown copyright protection unless otherwise indicated. The Crown copyright protected material (other than the Royal Arms and departmental or agency logos) may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium provided it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context. Where any of the Crown copyright items on this site are being republished or copied to others, the source of the material must be identified and the copyright status acknowledged.

Source: Companies House

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Many Thanks to Nigel at the McCann Files

McCann Case: Jane Tanner Rogatory Interview Part IV

Rogatory Interview Courtesy Of Duarte Levy

Part 4 Of 7 : Jane Tanner Interview

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW			Police Exhibit No		SVF/108A
Person Interviewed:	Jane TANNER		Number of Pages		46
Place of Interview:	Force Headquarters Enderby		Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview:	08/04/08		Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced:	1349 hours
Time Concluded:	1509 hours	Duration of Interview:		80 minutes
Interviewing Officer(s)	DC 4078 FERGUSON	Tape Reference nos:		SVF/108
Other Persons Present	None

Tape counter times	Person speaking	Text

00.00.04	4078	“It is thirteen forty-eight on the afternoon of Tuesday the eighth of April two thousand and eight.  I am DC Sophie FERGUSON from Leicestershire Major Crime Unit.  And you are?”
	Reply	“Jane Michelle TANNER”.
	4078	“Thank you Jane.  We are here talking about Madeleine’s disappearance and we have already spoken, we have had three separate interviews this morning and we are just carrying on, going through the sequence of events, as far as you can recall at this length of time afterwards”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And just before we turned these tapes off you said that you had spoken with Russell over lunch and you now realise your plan is wrong?”
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“So if you just remember that?”
	Reply	“Erm, Russell said he was actually sitting between, erm, Rachael and Dianne.  So I think, I’ve got Dianne there. So Russell was there.  And I think Dave, I think Dave might have been there and Fiona there”.
00.00.59	4078	“Okay.  So it goes then from you, anti-clockwise if you like, it is you and Kate, Matthew?”
	Reply	“That’s Matthew, yeah”.
	4078	“Fiona?”
	Reply	“Fiona”.
	4078	“David PAYNE?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Gerry.  Dianne.  Russell?”
	Reply	“Yeah, and then Rachael”.
	4078	“Rachael and then back to you?”
	Reply	“Yeah, as far as I can remember.  Like I say, this bit might be, a couple of them might be the opposite way round, but as far as I can remember”.
	4078	“Okay.  As far as you can say?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And you have already said that you got to the restaurant and Gerry and Kate were there talking to the other tennis couple?”
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“So they were at that table and there was another party or couple?”
	Reply	“I think, I think, yeah, as far as I can recall”.
	4078	“Okay.  And when you first came did you speak to Gerry and Kate?”
	Reply	“Yes, yeah”.
	4078	“And how were things?”
	Reply	“They were fine, completely normal, yeah”.
	4078	“And then everybody arrived at slightly different times but by nine o’clock’ish everybody was there?”
	Reply	“Yeah, everybody was there, yeah”.
00.02.01	4078	“And Matthew had gone off and done a check?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Because he had been up to see”.
	Reply	“Yeah, to chivvy up, yeah”.
	4078	“Right, okay.  Now you have had your lunch, is there anything else that you need to say before we move on?”
	Reply	“Erm, I don’t think so.  I think just to, I was thinking, one thing I didn’t mention is at the, I’m not sure when, when abouts in the meal, but I did have a conversation with Kate about, she’d said that she’d, Madeleine had said something strange about ‘Where were you last night when I woke up’.  And, as I say, I can’t remember where in the meal she said this, but she did sort of say, oh I thought she said I thought that was a bit odd when, when Kate said, you know, Madeleine obviously she did say ‘Where were you when’, you know, I think she said ‘When Sean and I woke up’, I can’t remember whether it was when two of them woke up.  So I think Kate was more worried that night, you know, whether leaving them was the, the right thing, or so to speak, so.  So you were saying then about the frequency of the checks.  I was just wondering if that was another reason, you know, why maybe the checks were more often”.
	4078	“Yeah.  How did Kate seem when she mentioned that?”
	Reply	“Fine, she was just sort of a bit, I think, you could see she was just a bit sort of concerned.  I think, because it was sort of like ‘Oh I wonder if she did wake up’.  I think she thought she hadn’t woken up really, Madeleine just was saying it.  But she did, yeah, you could tell it was, she was a bit sort of more worried, you know, than other, other nights there’d never been anything, but obviously the fact she’d said that, sort of”.
00.03.30	4078	“Put it into mind?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah”.
	4078	“And you don’t remember exactly at what point that was said?”
	Reply	“No, I think it was fairly early on, but, I mean, I don’t know whether it was, erm, I would think it would probably be early on.  I think it was when, I don’t think everybody else was there when she said that, so that would suggest it was early on.  But I can’t, that’s, that’s a recollection, I can’t say for sure”.
	4078	“And you know you had said on the Wednesday, I think it was the Wednesday night, yeah, you said that you had stayed later and had more to drink than the previous nights?”
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“Do you remember sort of roughly how much you’d had?”
	Reply	“No, I mean, we weren’t, you know, I mean, we weren’t sort of like roaring drunk, it wasn’t.  Erm, but I think just because we’d been there longer we probably had, I mean, I’d say I’d probably had four glasses of wine and then maybe the, I think at the end, I can’t remember what sort of a liqueur at the end, so”.
	4078	“That is not a lot in the course of the evening?”
	Reply	“No, I mean, over the, it wasn’t, it wasn’t loads, but, I mean, it was probably more than other nights probably”.
	4078	“Okay.  Right, lets go back to the Thursday then.  Everybody has sat down eventually and I take it the food has been ordered.  Take me through then, as you can remember it, and take as much time as you need”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“To remember in as much detail as possible, because the more you say the less likely I am going to have come back and ask questions later”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
00.04.50	4078	“So there is no rush, just in your own time”.
	Reply	“Yeah.  Erm, so, yeah, I think everybody, everybody arrived about nine o’clock.  I think we ordered fairly, as soon as Dave and Fi arrived we sort of like ordered almost straight away I think.  And almost I think as soon after Dave and Fi arrived Gerry went to do his check, because they’d already been there since sort of half past eight, so, you know, sort of like it was half an hour, a half an hour check for them.  So he, yeah, he, he went off to his check and he was longer than a bit, because I can remember Kate sort of saying ‘Oh bet he’s put the footy on’, because I think there was a football match that night and she sort of said ‘Oh I think he’s probably’, erm, you know, ‘got side tracked and put the telly on and catch up on the score’, so he was gone a bit longer than normal.  Erm, and then I think we thought ‘Oh well the starters are going to appear any minute’.  So Russ had sort of come down about quarter to.  And I think at this point, I don’t know whether I knew that Matt had been and listened or what, so I remember saying to Russ ‘Shall I got and check’ and I remember at that time thinking ‘Oh can I persuade Russ to go and check so I don’t have to’.  But, no, so, you know, I’ll go and check at that point. So, timing wise, I mean, I think it was sort of five past, ten past, ten past nine, around, around that sort of time”.
	4078	“From what I know from reading statements, Gerry was still absent?”
	Reply	“He wasn’t there at that point, no, no.  So, erm, then I walked, so I just walked out the, erm, the Ocean Club bit and walked, sort of walked up the road.  And then Gerry was there, he was talking to Jez WILKINS in the road, well they were sort of, as I went by.  So I think I thought then ‘Oh that’s why Jez’, not Jez, ‘That’s why Gerry has been, you know, that’s why he’s longer than we thought’”.
	4078	“Backtrack a little.  How long after Gerry had gone was it before you went to do your check?”
	Reply	“Well I think it must have been, well it must have been at least five minutes, if not more, because, I say, because he was gone, before I actually left there had been the conversations about him being waylaid.  So, I mean, if, I think it must have been sort of five or ten minutes, five or ten minutes after he’d gone.  I can’t say for sure, but”.
00.07.16	4078	“And from the time when you obviously didn’t feel it appropriate to persuade Russell to go and check”.
	Reply	“Yeah, it was my turn”.
	4078	“From the time you left the Tapas Bar, when you are talking, try and put yourself back there”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“It is a long time ago, I know, we have already discussed the feasibility of this.  But describe, not just that you saw Gerry up the road, describe what route you take and what you can see and what you can hear and whether it is light or dark and any other noises that you are conscious of”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“I know it is a tall order”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“But just do the best you can”.
	Reply	“Yeah.  Erm, I’m just trying to, well I’ve walked out of the, walked out of the, erm, the Tap, you know, walked sort of into the reception of the Tapas Bar and obviously walked up the road.  I remember I was wearing, because it was cold, I’d got Russell’s big, I’d borrowed one of his, erm, fleeces, so I’d got a big sort of fleece, it probably came down to about here, but then I’d got flip-flops on and cropped trousers, because I’d only got, I didn’t take jeans, I know I didn’t take jeans on holiday, and then.  Oh I’m sidetracking a bit, but that’s why I knew one of the pictures in the paper wasn’t from the holiday, because I hadn’t got jeans on the holiday with me, so.  Erm, yeah, and I’d got cropped trousers on and just flip-flops, so I can remember sort of walking, I couldn’t walk that quickly because I’d got these silly flip-flops on and I couldn’t walk that, that well in them, so to speak.  Erm, and I walked, I was walking up the road and I can’t remember exactly, I know this,  I know, I think Gerry thinks he was somewhere different to where I think they were standing, but I was fairly sure, as I walked up the road, they were standing, one of them was in the road and one of them was just on the edge of the pavement, but I thought it was on the side of the road that I was walking, but I know Gerry thinks they were the other side.  But I thought they were closer by, because as I walked by, I almost did go to sort of acknowledge them and I thought at that point ‘Oh they were cha cha cha’ and I did think, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t know whether they’d seen me or not, but I did actually go to acknowledge them and I think if they’d have been that far away I don’t know whether I would have sort of almost gone to say hello, but.  But they were talking quite (inaudible), so I just carried on, you know, up, up the road.  I mean, I thought they were, as you’re going up here, I thought they were more, erm, again I know this is where me and Gerry differ, but I thought they were sort of more near the little alleyway.  I think sort of”.
00.09.47	4078	“Is that the alleyway, sorry, would that be (inaudible)?”
	Reply	“Yeah, sort of here.  I thought they were sort of round this sort of bit here”.
	4078	“Yeah, so on the plan that you have drawn can you put a cross where you”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“I know you are uncertain because you think Gerry’s recollection is different, but as far as you can remember”.
	Reply	“Well I think one of them was in the road and I think, I thought it was Jez in the road because he had the pram.  And I don’t know which, I can’t remember which way he was facing.  No, I mean, I think I remember in my statement I did say, but I can’t remember now which way he was facing.  And I thought Gerry was almost like on the edge of the pavement or just, just in the road sort of, but definitely sort of by that, sort of more by this alleyway.  I don’t think they were by the apartment gate, I thought they were sort of a bit further down, down the road than that”.
	4078	“So where would the apartment gate be then?”
	Reply	“Probably here I should think”.
00.10.49	4078	“And that would lead down to the roadside door of their apartment or the poolside door of their apartment?”
	Reply	“That leads to the poolside door”.
	4078	“Right.  So you think they were quite a bit further down?”
	Reply	“I think, yeah, I mean, somewhere within this, I don’t think they were right outside the gate for sure.  I don’t, I’m not sure, but they were definitely, I definitely can’t remember them being right over here, purely because I know I did go to acknowledge them and I don’t think if they were over there I would have thought to acknowledge them.  Because it was almost like ‘Oh did I ignore them as I walked past’, you know, it was almost that thought in my head, you know, ‘Should I have stopped to say hello’.  And now obviously I wished I bloody had.  But, you know, sort of, so I think, I, I’m still convinced they were nearer to that side of the road than that side of the road”.
	4078	“So you come out of the Tapas Bar and presumably you have walked along that way, have you?”
	Reply	“Yeah, I’ve come out here, through the gate”.
	4078	“And that is up the hill, is it?”
	Reply	“And up the hill, yeah”.
	4078	“And when you have gone past Gerry and Jez whereabouts have they been in relation to you?”
	Reply	“If I’m walking this way, they were sort of”.
	4078	“So they were to your right?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Okay.  Go on”.
	Reply	“So, yeah, so I went past them, erm, up to the, and then walking up to the top of the road and then, as I got to the top, this person, somebody walked across the top of the road with, with a child.  And obviously at that point I just thought ‘Oh it’s somebody taking their kid to bed’, so to speak”.
00.12.21	4078	“Go back again.  Pretend I don’t know anything about this”.
	Reply	“Okay”.
	4078	“Pretend it has not been in the papers”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Or, you know, I know we have discussed it between ourselves before (inaudible)”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“But, as far as you can, try and tell me as though I am somebody that doesn’t know anything about this”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“And you have walked up that hill, was it light or dark by that point?”
	Reply	“I think it was getting, I think it was getting dark, I can’t, yeah, it was definitely, because the lights, the street lights were on, so it was definitely, because it was quite, erm, it was quite orangy, I think they were was sort of like a bit of an orangy.  It’s so hard to.  Yeah, the street lights were definitely on and I think it was, I think it was fairly dark by this time, because I think that’s why I was sort of thinking ‘Oh lets send Russell, send Russell back rather than’, well not, but, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Oh I can’t be bothered to go up and check, I’m sure I can persuade Russell to go’, but then I decided to go myself, so.  So I think, I think it was, I think it was getting, it was dark”.
	4078	“What about other people, what other noises?”
	Reply	“No, I mean, there was no, apart from Gerry, well apart from Gerry and Jez there was nobody else around.  And I think when you went down to the, often when we went down to the, erm, Tapas Bar there was people then because it was earlier and I think a lot of people had said we’re eating earlier, so were often going home almost as we were coming down, so you would see people walking around then, whereas, as it got later, it did turn into more sort of a ghost town type, so.  So, yeah, I didn’t really see anybody.  I’d say, I think, again, which made me thought it was even odder, I think when I’d been to check other nights at that time I probably hadn’t seen anybody before, it was more earlier that you saw people carrying their children around”.
00.14.16	4078	“What time would this have been around?”
	Reply	“I’d say it was around ten past nine’ish”.
	4078	“So you have left the Tapas Bar and you have gone up that hill.  What is there, is there a pavement and a road there?”
	Reply	“Yeah, there’s sort of like a pavement which is sort of almost like made up of, it’s not cobbles, but made up of small stones”.
	4078	“Not ideal for flip-flop wearers?”
	Reply	“No, because I do remember, I was almost looking at my, sort of not looking at my feet, but I was sort of padding, because obviously I was trying to get to do the check and get back as quick as possible as well, so I just thought ‘Oh I’ll just go and do the check as quick as possible’ and I did think, I was not struggling to walk in my flip-flips, but, you know, I wasn’t, I wasn’t striding”.
	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“Erm”.
	4078	“And, like you say, there’s a kind of orange tint to things?”
	Reply	“There was, yeah, that bit I do, and thinking, I’m thinking that more from leaving the table, I think this bit, I can remember sort of being quite dark, you know, sort of by the pool, the pool lights and everything being, being quite dark”.
	4078	“So your intention as you are walking up the road was just to check on Ella and Evie?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah, just to check on them”.
	4078	“Just your two?”
	Reply	“Yeah, nobody else.  Because, well Gerry was there, so I thought he’d just checked.  Matt had checked when he’d, erm, been to chivvy up Dave and Fi.  And we never checked on Dave and Fi because they had their monitor, which they were quite happy with, so they didn’t check at all, so”.
00.15.38	4078	“So you were just trying to get to check your girls as quickly as you could and get back as quick as you could?”
	Reply	“For the starters, yeah.  I mean, now you think.  But, yeah, that was, that was just in my head, just get there, check they’re okay and come back”.
	4078	“Okay.  So when did you first notice Gerry standing there?”
	Reply	“I would have probably noticed him as soon as I came, I mean, I don’t, this is not, I don’t think that distance is probably as far as that, you come out and he was, they were sort of, so almost, I’d probably say almost straight away.  Again, I don’t know, but I, I know people are saying I’ve not been on the road, but they were there and I wouldn’t know they were there if I hadn’t walked past, you know, you’ve got to see my frustration in this, and I know Gerry didn’t see me and Jez didn’t see me, but”.
	4078	“You were there?”
	Reply	“They were there and I was there”.
	4078	“And you say you almost went to acknowledge them but they were so engrossed in conversation?”
	Reply	“They were, yeah.  I mean, I don’t know whether you’ve met Gerry, but other people have met Gerry, and when Gerry is talking, it’s bit like I said earlier, that he is very focussed, he is a very focussed person.  And it doesn’t surprise me he didn’t see me, because if he’s talking he’s very focussed on what he’s doing at that stage.  I mean, obviously I don’t  know, I don’t know Jez, I hadn’t actually, I hadn’t had any contact with Jez through the week, I didn’t, you know, he wasn’t somebody we chatted to, so, you know, in terms of him recognising me or knowing me, he didn’t know me, so”.
	4078	“And can you remember, as you past them or thought to acknowledge them, then you noticed they were deep in conversation, can you remember which angle you saw them from, which way they were facing?”
	Reply	“No, I, phew, again, I would probably guess Gerry’s back was more towards me, because I would have thought if I’d have seen him I would have definitely probably stopped and said ‘Oh you’re in trouble, you’ve been long, we think you’ve been watching the footy’, you know, but.  Because I think that’s almost when I went to acknowledge them, that’s almost what went through my head, you know, is to sort of give a bit of abuse about the fact he’d been so long, but.  So I would imagine his, maybe his back was to me, but.  And, again, in that way, that would make more sense, because I don’t know Jez, so it’s not like I would have gone ‘Oh hi Jez’, you know, that way, so.  Yeah, I, I honestly, I can’t remember now which way they were.  But I do, I stand by the fact I’m sure they were nearer than right over here”.
00.17.58	4078	“Okay.  And did you hear what they were saying?”
	Reply	“No.  No, not really.  Not that I can remember”.
	4078	“Were there any cars around there?”
	Reply	“Erm, umm, no, I don’t know.  I don’t remember.  I don’t remember walking past any going up here and I think I would have probably, if there had been I would have realised, because that would have obscured my view of the person walking, so I can’t think of, I can’t think of any, no”.
	4078	“So as you are trying to remember it and you can think of yourself walking up that road and you have gone past Gerry and Jez”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“Are you conscious of any other movement?”
	Reply	“It’s, it’s too long now.  Erm, no, not really.  I mean, I was just walking up, you know, I was like just sort of on a, not on a mission, but I was just like, you know, on the way to, to check, so I didn’t notice anything either side.  The only thing I noticed a movement was when somebody walked across at the top”.
	4078	“Go on to tell me about that then as slowly as you can?”
	Reply	“Yes, erm, I was, I think I was nearing the top of the road, it’s a bit of a, I’m trying to think how, but I can’t really remember how much of a hill it is, but it is definitely a hill going up there, and just as I got to the top somebody did walk across.  And the thing that really struck me was the, erm, the bare feet.  And the thought that came into my head was, I’ll say when we’re in Leicester, our children were quite adaptable, and what we used to do is, we used to walk round to Dave and Fi’s house for, erm, the kids, for tea with the kids, the kids would play, we’d put them in a travel cot there and we’d sometimes stay a bit later and then carry the kids home, because it’s only, it’s like the next road.  And we’d wrap them in a blanket or whatever, but you could always, their feet would fall, their feet would fall out the bottom and you’d think ‘Oh they’re going to get cold feet’ because they’d always wriggle.  So one thing I thought was ‘Oh a bit of a bad parent like us, you know, that kid’s obviously being taken home’ or whatever.  And I think that’s all, you know, that’s sort of, erm, I think that’s where the sort of I thought ‘Oh’, and that was the only reason I really clocked it I think.  Because at that point I thought it’s a person taking their child either back from the crèche or, you know, just some father carrying their own child, so it didn’t really, you know, and that didn’t.  I’m making it sound like it really registered at the time, but it didn’t, that is literally, I thought ‘Oh’”.
20.44	4078	“That moment in time?”
	Reply	“Yeah, I just thought that”.
	4078	“That was in your mind?”
	Reply	“Yeah, that is, erm, and I think at that point I did think as well, the way they were dressed wasn’t quite touristy.  As I say, I mean, I looked a right state because I’d got Russell’s big jumper on, cropped trousers and flip-flips and, yeah, it was quite, you know, sort of cold and, and they looked more like they were prepared for the weather, you know, sort of thing.  And I think when Jez, I think Jez had probably got shorts on and, you know, a jumper or something, and looked more like.  He just didn’t look quite like a, you know, a tourist, I suppose, or, so”.
	4078	“Yes, us Brits abroad like to try and brave, if we’re on holiday we like to have,    wear holiday clothes, don’t we?”
	Reply	“Well”.
00,21.25	4078	(inaudible)
	Reply	“Yeah, and I think it was just that factor was, it just didn’t look quite, you know, it just didn’t look quite like a tourist on holiday or somebody you would imagine on a MARK WARNER holiday carrying their kid home.  As I say, this is all in hindsight”.
	4078	“I know, yeah.  And also you said that, you know, your immediate assumption or not probably even thought about it that much at the time, but you thought he might have been carrying a child home from the crèche?”
	Reply	“Yeah, well I think you did see people, I mean, not that late at night, and, again, that should have made me think more, but especially sort of, you know, earlier on you’d see them carrying children in pyjamas to the, the crèche where you can leave them at night and then pick them up again”.
	4078	“Would that fit in with the direction he had come from?”
	Reply	“Well, again, no.  Well, it would have been, I mean, at that time, you would of more expected him to be going the other way, coming back from the crèche maybe.  But he could have gone, if he’d have gone that way and then cut down, there is a way you could have cut down to the crèche, going that way, so”.
	4078	“Okay”.
	Reply	“So really, you know, at the time, I thought.  And I think I did actually think ‘Oh a bit odd’, but never in a million years would I have thought ‘That’s Madeleine’.  And I think, well Gerry was standing on the bloomin’ road, so I thought he’d, not thought, he’d just, he had just checked, you know, I thought he’d just checked”.
	4078	“If you had have thought that was Madeleine at the time you would have said?”
	Reply	“Well, yeah, if I’d have thought, yeah, you know, if I’d have seen it was Madeleine you’d have, you know, I’m not going to go ‘Oh there goes Madeleine’, you know, I would have shouted, but.  But, yeah, I know the Police think I’m a sympathetic witness and whatever, but I don’t know what I can do to”.
00.23.07	4078	“You can only say what you saw”.
	Reply	“But I did see it, you know, I think that is the.  I’m sorry”.
	4078	“It’s alright”.
	Reply	“But, you know, it’s just the frustration of not being believed on this, it’s”.
	4078	“Yeah (inaudible)”.
	Reply	“No, but the best thing that could happen to me, apart from Madeleine being found, is somebody coming up and saying ‘That was me’, you know, ‘That was me walking across there’, because, you know, you know, I don’t want that to be Madeleine, but, you know, there’s no, but I’m convinced that was and, you know, people have got to, so I don’t know what I can do to make them believe that.  I’m sorry”.
	4078	“Don’t worry.  Take a moment”.
	Reply	“But, you know, I think it’s, I do, I’m not the sort of person that would make this up, I don’t want any limelight, you know, you’ve only got to look, ask people that know me, I’m not”.
	4078	“You wish you hadn’t seen it?”
	Reply	“I just, yeah, I do, I wish I hadn’t.  As I say, I wish I’d made Russell go at that point.  I really wish I hadn’t seen this.  But, you know, they have to, and, as I say, apart from Madeleine being found, the best thing that could happen to me is somebody coming and saying ‘No, you’re wrong Jane that wasn’t them, that was me carrying my child’, that is what, you know, I dream of happening, after Madeleine being found, you know”.
	4078	“All you can do for now Jane is just say what you saw”.
	Reply	(inaudible)
	4078	“It’s alright.  Do you want to take a moment?”
	Reply	“No, no, it’s just”.
00.24.31	4078	“You can only say what you saw”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“And you can only do it as far as you can do it”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“You can’t add detail that you didn’t see”.
	Reply	“No”.
	4078	“Because at that time it was just a passing glimpse”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And it didn’t really register with you until later on when things fell into place”.
	Reply	“Yeah.  No, exactly”.
	4078	“So, if you are ready”.
	Reply	“Yeah, sorry”.
	4078	“It’s alright.  I can fully understand why you have so much frustration.  And, in as much as the part where Gerry thinks he was standing somewhere slightly different to where you saw him, well that, you know, people do see things from different perspectives”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“You know, we can take a statement from people, if an incident happened outside and there was a group of people watching it, everybody would have a different take on what they had seen”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“And that, you know, it doesn’t matter.  You can only say what you can remember and as far as you can remember it.  And if it is different from how it was then things can be explained”.
	Reply	“Well, I mean, just whatever, they were, they were standing there.  And, you know, just from, how I wouldn’t know they were standing there.  And if I was trying to make this up, don’t you think I would have made damn sure they saw me.  Why on earth would I say I saw them and then they turn round and say they didn’t see me.  It’s just, you know, it’s just, you know, I think that’s just, yeah, it’s just.  I’m not making this up”.
00.25.46	4078	“Because of the Case that this is and it has been in the Press a lot and you have received a lot of comment and a lot of unwelcome comment as well I should imagine, that is bound to reflect on how you feel about”.
	Reply	“Yeah, I know, yeah”.
	4078	“Things.  But our purpose today”.
	Reply	“I know, I need to forget that”.
	4078	“Is to go over again what you saw and not because we don’t believe you just because we need to go back through everything”.
	Reply	“Yeah, I know, yeah.  But I just want, you know, obviously from my point of view, I really want to make sure that I am believed, because I am not lying on this, I’m really not, and I just think it’s important.  And I think that’s my frustration as well, if I’ve not been believed up to this point, I should have been asked this months ago.  You should have put, you know, interrogated me to find out if I am lying months ago, you know, not just think ‘Oh no, she’s made that up’ because somebody didn’t see me walk by, I just think that is the point I want to make and to live with that, knowing that’s not being taken into account, is hard.  Anyway, but, so I just want to make that point”.
	4078	“ Yeah, but also, from our point of view, that has been taken into account what you have said”.
	Reply	“Oh, yeah, I know, okay, I agree, yeah”.
	4078	“It is not”.
	Reply	“I know, the problem is, it’s just getting the Press and the”.
00.26.52	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“It all gets (inaudible)”.
	4078	“Yeah, it does get distorted.  But, I mean, certainly from our perspective, that has definitely been taken into account”.
	Reply	“Okay, yeah, I’ll stop ranting now, sorry”.
	4078	“No, it’s alright.  I just don’t want you to feel that, you know, nobody is listening to you”.
	Reply	“Yeah, I know, yeah”.
	4078	“Because we have been”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Right.  Okay.  So you have seen Gerry and you have seen Jez?”
	Reply	“So this person, he walked across the road and the things, I think the three things that struck me was the feet, purely for the reason, and that’s the reason I spotted them, the clothes were a bit, not what I’d expect and also they were walking quite, quite, they looked like they were, they weren’t running but it was a purposeful walk, so they were walking quite purposefully”.
	4078	“Where were they, I was going to exactly, but exactly, in as far as you can remember?”
	Reply	“They were sort of, I think I spotted them sort of in the middle, sort of here’ish or, I don’t, I mean, I can’t say for sure, but sort of more sort of from that angle and then they were carrying on that way”.
	4078	“And was that, is there another pavement there, on the junction?”
	Reply	“No, they were on, there’s a junction, this is sort of the road and they were walking along the side of the pavement, then I would then walk along”.
	4078	“So they were on the same side that you were about to walk along?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
00.28.04	4078	“Right.  And when you first became aware of this man holding the child, if you can try and picture in your mind, as I am sure you have done over and over again, and start from the top of his head and work your way down and tell me what he looked like?”
	Reply	“You see this is where now I’m really, I don’t even know whether it’s worth doing this, because there’s been so much, since then I’ve had the, when they took me round for the surveillance to look at, and I’m guessing now it’s MURAT they wanted me to look at and, you know, all the other bits and bobs, I really don’t know, but I think I’d prefer just to stick with what I said in my original statement, in terms of the, because even, I mean, this is coming back to the sketch, even when I did the sketch, by that stage, you know, things were, were murky, I needed to that sketch that first night, I mean, they took me in to do the sketch, but they only had, erm, front facing software, so you know, and at that point I said, you know, is there, can I do, because the clothes and everything was the thing was the thing that was the most in my mind then and I can remember saying to the chap I met on the stairs earlier, I think it’s (inaudible), is it?”
	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“Because he took me in the car back and forth and I can remember saying to him on the way back ‘Look, is there a way I can do a sketch with clothes, you know, do you have software or any way that I can do a sketch of the clothes or a side, a side view’.  And he sort of said ‘No, we don’t have that feasible, you know, feasibility or availability’.  And I said then ‘Can I do that when I go back to the UK’, you know, because at that point it was in my head and it would have been, and they were the bits that I think would have been recognisable to get down on paper.  But at that point it was like ‘Oh no, we can’t do that, we don’t work in that way’.  Which I can understand and, you know, now obviously I think ‘Oh I should have pushed and really pushed’, but at that point you rely on, you don’t, you know, you’re just in such shock and you just think ‘Okay that’s the way things do’, but”.
	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“But, I mean, I think, so the things that I’m happy, that are still in my head, that still stick in my head is the hair and it was longer, it was sort of longish and, erm, I don’t know how to (inaudible), but each, each, almost the hair was long, the bits of hair were long, so it was long into the neck, you know, sort of in, when people have a number one or whatever at the back and it’s shaved, not shaved up, but, you know, sort of layered up, this was more long into the neck, so sort of long, each, each individual hair was long, erm, and dark, it was sort of quite dark and glossy, that sticks in my head.  And sort of the dark, dark clothes and quite billowy, not billowy clothes, but quite baggy, sort of they seemed, erm, not ill fitting but quite baggy clothes, like not jeans, but trousers sort of not Chinos but not Farrahs either, but sort of baggy’ish sort of ill fitting more than.  And they’re the bits that I remember quite vividly sort of”.
00.31.05	4078	“And what colours?”
	Reply	“Dark colours, but again it was, I think it was quite dark, so dark, sort of darkish jacket but then a more, a lighter trouser but a horrible colour, again this is, sort of a yellowy dark browny, horrible, but not, not a nice colour trousers, but then I wonder whether that was the lights making them look, making them look more of a sort of a mustard, it wasn’t mustard because that’s too bright, but it was just like a, as I say they weren’t nice, they weren’t the sort of clothes I’d expect somebody on a MARK WARNER holiday to, they was, I can’t think of the material, I tried to describe this before, but sort of a cottony material but baggy”.
	4078	“You know the artist’s impression that you”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“That has been circulated a lot.  How happy are you with that?”
	Reply	“Erm, phew, reasonably, but, I mean, it was the best I could do after that time, I mean, it was more, the hair was the one thing on that that I wasn’t completely happy about but we couldn’t get it any better because it was the sort of, I almost think that might have been slightly too long or just, but on the whole I think the actual sort of style and everything was, was fairly right.  I mean, I tried to do that though from my original description that we wrote down, sort of well afterwards (inaudible) we tried to get all our thoughts down and I tried to do it as much as I could from that, because six months on, as I say, there was, I think the problem is there’d been so much put into my head since then, like doing the surveillance and, you know, looking at people on that and things, it was very hard to, to do it”.
00.32.47	4078	“I must come back and talk about that when we have finished going through everything”.
	Reply	“Yeah, that’s fine, yeah”.
	4078	“What about the height of the man?”
	Reply	“Erm, phew, well, you know, I did it on the, I sort of pointed out where it was on the person that interviewed me originally and, erm, sort of, not six foot but taller than me but sort of not, but not, I’d say I think it was sort of about five foot nine, five foot ten.  But I think that had got confused in translation because I don’t know what it was in metres and they sort of then transferred that into metres from my statement, so I think it came out actually lower.  But I think it was sort of like five foot nine, five foot ten, as much as I could, so”.
	4078	“Okay.  And his build?”
	Reply	“Medium, well sort of just normal build.  As I say, I think the clothes were quite baggy, so I think they made him look more bigger than he probably was, but.  And also he would have been, his shoulders would have been out, you know, sort of.  So, I think, erm, yeah, medium’ish, a medium’ish build”.
	4078	“And you said earlier you thought he was, I can’t remember what word you used, walking, you didn’t say briskly, but”.
	Reply	“Purposefully”.
	4078	“Purposefully”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Did you notice anything else about the way he walked?”
	Reply	“Not really, just that it was very, as I say, it did seem quite a very, you know, a purposeful.  And also the way he was carrying was sort of, it’s the way I would pick my children up if I didn’t want to wake them up, you know, if you’re sort of picking them up to put them into another bed or something, it is the way I would pick them up if they were asleep, because it’s, normally you would imagine you would carry them over your shoulder or something.  So, again, in hindsight, that was probably a bit of an odd way to be, you know, be carrying, but”.
00.34.37	4078	“Is there anything else about the man that you can remember now?”
	Reply	“No, I mean, I would be so worried now about things that are put into my, I think the only two things that I’m still absolutely adamant on is a lot of hair, sort of a lot of thick, thick hair and sort of dark and baggy, well not, ill fitting clothes I think is the sort of, you know, sort of is the two things that still, I mean obviously I get this image in my head all the time and they are the two things that are still, are still, are still there”.
	4078	“And then think about the child again, as much as you can see of that child in that split second, and tell me what you saw?”
	Reply	“Well, again, I mean, and this is, I think initially I couldn’t really bring, I could only really remember the feet.  But the day after, when we had, they, at the interview, the person that was interviewing was really pushing me to try and, you know, remember any more details, and the one thing that I could really think was, erm, a turn-up of some description.  And I don’t know whether this made it into my statement, but there was, and this is the thing that convinces me it was her, there was, erm, sort of the pyjamas were, there was some sort of, I thought it was a turn-up, but some sort of design on the bottom of the pyjamas.  And I did say it in my first statement and in my second statement I can remember saying it again and, erm, the translator in there, because I said ‘I don’t know whether this made it into my first statement or not’, but the translator sort of went ‘Oh yes, I can remember you going like this’, because I was moving my hands up, but I was sort of talking about something at the bottom of the pyjamas.  Because, from my own point of view, and I think, you know, ‘Oh was I trying to’, I can think that I would think ‘Oh maybe a little girl would be wearing pink pyjamas’, so, you know, if you were subconsciously putting things in your head, I can think pink pyjamas, yes, but I wouldn’t think of some detail around the bottom of the pyjamas as a specific thing to, to mention”.
00.36.39	4078	“And when you noticed the detail was it in any colour?”
	Reply	“I don’t, I didn’t know, I thought there was sort of a pink flowery bit on, bit on it, but, no, I mean, the actual frill itself or turn-up, as I thought it was, I couldn’t think of the colour, but I thought there was pink sort of flowery and sort of like liney bits on the bottom, so”.
	4078	“And, overall, what colour would you say the pyjama bottoms were?”
	Reply	“Erm, I can’t, I can’t remember, I mean, I, I can’t remember, well I can’t remember now, but I think they were sort of whitey but with this, with this pattern on, but then some pink.  That’s, that’s what I thought at the time.  It’s harder because now I know what the pyjamas were so I can’t”.
	4078	“It is very difficult”.
	Reply	“I think that is hard for me to actually”.
	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“To think now because I can, I can see them now”.
	4078	“Because you know what actually they would have been if it had have been Madeleine?”
	Reply	“Yeah, exactly, yeah, so I can’t really go back to thinking what they were”.
	4078	“It is very difficult.  What about the child’s feet then, what can you say about feet, if anything, other than that they were uncovered?”
	Reply	“Just that they were uncovered and it looked like they were, you know, they seemed to be asleep.  I mean, they was definitely, you know, they were, as you would imagine if the child was asleep.  But, you know, that’s all, that’s all I can, like I say, it was more just the, the fact they were, you know, you could see them”.
00.38.02	4078	“And the way you have held your hands like that, were the feet side-by-side like that?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“So the child would have been held on its back?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And you say that they were very relaxed as though they were asleep?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah, they were not, there was no, you know, there was no struggle or any, yeah, they just looked like they were asleep.  So, again, if you’d imagine somebody had been just, you know, taken out of their bed or something you’d imagine they’d be, but, no, they were very, you know, asleep”.
	4078	“How long do you think it was that you had them in sight?”
	Reply	“Erm, phew, not that, I mean, I did, I think I did go like that after they’d gone, so it probably wasn’t, phew, it’d be seconds, wouldn’t it, it’d be just like, phew, a few seconds and then as I got to the top I think I went like that, which I think is when I noticed more that they were walking quite quick.  But, no, I mean, not, you know, not, not that long at all”.
	4078	“I know this seems like an obvious question, which I think I know the answer to, because I’ve seen the artist’s impression, did you see the man’s face?”
	Reply	“No, no, not, no, I mean, just the hair, well not, not that I could remember to give details, give details to”.
	4078	“How far away from you were they at the closest point?”
	Reply	“Phew, as, I mean, it’s hard to, sort of thing, but I think I was sort of halfway, it’s probably sort of five metres, I mean, I’m trying to sort of think in terms of this room, but sort of probably just further than that wall, probably sort of five to ten metres id’ say, if, I don’t know how far it is to there, but”.
	4078	“I would say probably about, I am just guessing, but two and a half to three metres?”
	Reply	“Yeah, I’d probably say sort of five, five to ten metres, well probably five, nearer five”.
00.40.00	4078	“So about as far away again the other side of the wall as you are from this side?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah, probably, yeah, sort of, as when I first, when I first saw them”.
	4078	“I don’t know why I was looking over there, it’s like I was (inaudible)”.
	Reply	“I know.  But, yeah, I’d say probably, and then obviously I was walking as they were walking, so it would have probably, I don’t know whether it would have gone less or, but, I mean, I wasn’t like staring, you know, it was sort of like a”.
	4078	“A passing interest, yeah?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Right.  Okay.  Are you okay?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“So the man and the child have moved off down the road towards, do you know where that goes towards?”
	Reply	“Erm, well it’s just this road, I think it’s, erm, I’d be here, so they’re walking up here.  Say that’s the top of the road there, so they’re walking along here”.
	4078	“And what is that in the direction of, do you know, where does that ultimately go to?”
	Reply	“That sort of goes, that goes up to the road, that’s the main road out, well to get out of the town or so to speak.  You sort of go up here and then back and that will take you to, to the crèche”.
	4078	“Okay”.
	Reply	“And the sort of car park is here.  These bits here are sort of the car parky bit”.
	4078	“And when you say you saw them walk down and you might have turned back as well, whereabouts were they at the point where you turned back?”
	Reply	“Erm, I’d say probably about there.  They were, well round this bit, they weren’t as far as the car parky bit.  I’m trying to picture that area there.  But they weren’t, they were probably, by that stage, probably about three times that distance or”.
00.41.52	4078	“Yeah”.
	Reply	“You know, sort of a bit more than, than that distance away”.
	4078	“On the same side of the road?”
	Reply	“The same side of the road as, yeah”.
	4078	“And was there anything about the way he walked or the speed that he was walking that made you think he was about to change direction?”
	Reply	“No, no, no, he was just sort of, just walking”.
	4078	“So you are unable to say where he stopped or?”
	Reply	“No, he was just walking on that way as I looked and then I’d, I’d sort of went the opposite way, went the opposite way to carry on the check”.
	4078	“So thinking then about the last glimpse you had of him, when you turned back and you saw him and you say he was not yet at the car park, he was on the same side of the road.  Are you happy with the way you have described the lighting that there was a kind of an orangy tint?”
	Reply	“Yeah, as much as I can remember.  I mean, I don’t, it was, I’m sure it was, it was, it was dark, it was getting, it was fairly, I’m sure it was fairly, phew.  I’m trying to think.  Yeah, I’m sure it was fairly dark by that, it was, the street lights were definitely, I’m sure the street lights were definitely.  I can’t say, but I think it was, I think it was getting fairly dark”.
	4078	(inaudible)
	Reply	“Yeah, fairly dark.  I’m sure, phew, I might be completely wrong, but”.
	4078	“As far as you can say at the moment, that is what you think?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And again I am going to ask about cars”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
00.43.37	4078	“Were there any, did you notice any cars around?”
	Reply	“There were cars around but, phew, because you’ve often got them, say, sort of down this bit here.  But I can’t remember what they were or I didn’t notice anything that looked odd, you know, no car that seemed to be standing out from anything else, so”.
	4078	“No”.
	Reply	“No”.
	4078	“So you didn’t notice any car headlights or noises from cars?”
	Reply	“No, no, because I think, you know, if I’d heard sort of a car screech off quickly at that point, I probably would have, would have taken notice I think”.
	4078	“And, what was I going to ask then.  Yeah, if you were, you don’t need to say anything at the moment.  But go back in your own mind and think of what you have just told me again”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“You have just concentrated on the visual aspect of what you saw”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“Go back over it and have a think if you heard anything from the point where you have passed Gerry and Jez to seeing this man, what could you hear?”
	Reply	“Phew, I can’t think of anything, there was nothing, no, nothing that comes to mind, there was nothing, as I say, I can’t remember hearing a car or, no, nothing, I mean, it was quite, apart from, as I say, it was very quiet really around there”.
	4078	“What about the man and the child, did you hear his footsteps?”
	Reply	“No, not that I can remember”.
	4078	“Not that you were conscious of?”
	Reply	“No, no, not that I’m conscious of, no”.
00.45.25	4078	“Okay.  So you have glimpsed, you know, turned back and see the man disappearing off down the road with the child and, at that time, didn’t really think anything of it other than the child might have cold feet?”
	Reply	“Yeah, and just”.
	4078	“And later on did you think it was significant?”
	Reply	“It was a, yeah, it was sort of came as soon as, as soon as they said that came, buff, straight.  As soon as I’d seen it there it was forgotten and then, buff, as soon as Rachael said”.
	4078	“So then you are back on track going to check Ella and Evie”.
	Reply	“Umm”.
	4078	“Tell me from there what happened?”
	Reply	“So I just carried on walking the opposite way into and then walked through the car park and into our apartment through the back, through the roadside, the roadside door.  And, like I say, I just went in, it was all, they were both, I actually went into the room and checked and they were both quiet.  And then, as I say, I just walked straight back to the restaurant.  I didn’t see anything.  I didn’t see them there when I walked back, they weren’t, there was nobody that I spotted and Gerry and Jez had gone by that stage as well, I think they’d gone back into, well Gerry had obviously gone back into the restaurant and I don’t know where Jez had gone, but I didn’t see them again after, after that point”.
	4078	“How long did it take you to check on your daughters?”
	Reply	“I don’t know, (inaudible) question, erm, I was probably only in there, phew, a minute or a minute and a half literally.  I’m trying to think if I went to the loo or anything and I don’t think I did, I think I just literally went in, erm, I don’t know.  I think I literally went in and looked at them and then, and then went back.  As I say I was almost conscious that it was just a quick check before, it sounds like I wasn’t bothering and I was desperate to get back for the food, but, you know, that was sort of just like a quick check before the food came”.
00.47.26	4078	“Yeah, okay.  Right.  So did you take the same route back to the Tapas Bar?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And on the route back can you remember seeing anybody?”
	Reply	“No, I have to say, not, not at all.  And Gerry and Jez had gone by that time, so”.
	4078	“And what was going through your mind as you walked back, anything, that you can remember?”
	Reply	“Erm, no, I don’t think so.  I mean, this person wasn’t really etched on my brain, it was just, erm, I think I was just thinking ‘Oh the kids are alright’, you know, ‘I’ll go back’”.
	4078	“Tell me what happened then from there and I will try not to interrupt you?”
	Reply	“No, that’s fine.  Erm, so I went back, erm, we just carried on with the meal.  And then, I think, erm, I can’t remember anything odd, you know, within that, that time.  And then I think, it’s been, I think, I can’t remember who said ‘Oh time to check again’, I think it actually might have been Kate that said ‘Oh it’s half nine I’ll go and do a check’.  And I think Matt said at that point, Matt and Russ said ‘Oh we’ll go, do you want us to look in on’, erm, on, you know, ‘on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie’.  As I say, I don’t know, I wasn’t really part of this, I don’t know how it, who actually said ‘It’s time for a check’, but I can remember sort of, erm, them saying to Kate ‘Oh do you want us to put our head in’.  And I think because Gerry had only, you know, probably had been in there a bit longer, she probably thought ‘Oh yeah’, you know, and let them.  I think Russ had checked earlier in the week once on Madeleine and Sean and Amelie.  But I don’t want to say who checked with him because I don’t, I don’t know that, but”.
	4078	“Yes, I mean, you know from what you did really”.
	Reply	“Yeah, so, so Matt and Russell went back to, erm, to check and I think they went first to, I don’t know, whether they went first round the back to our apartments, because to get to check on Sean and Amelie they would go through the pool side door, whereas, I think Matt and Rachael’s they would go on the roadside doors to do the checks, so.  And that’s when Russell found Evie was awake so he stayed there with Evie.  And then I think Matt checked on Grace and then went and checked on Madeleine, Sean and Amelie and then went back to the restaurant”.
00.50.00	4078	“During the time obviously that they were doing that, you were sat at the table?”
	Reply	“Yeah, we were just sat at the table, yeah”.
	4078	“And at what stage in the meal were you at then?”
	Reply	“Phew, that must have been just before the mains came I think.  Because I think that might be why they thought they’d go and check, because I think it was just before the mains came.  Because I know when Matt came back I was sort of halfway through my main meal, because he said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s woken up’.  And so I think wolfed down the rest of my meal so I could go back and take over so Russ could come down and finish his.  So I’m guessing it must have just been before the, before the mains came”.
	4078	“And can you remember what was being spoken about at that stage?”
	Reply	“Erm, no, I can’t, I mean, there was, we had a joke the night, earlier, a bit rude this bit, but we had a joke earlier in the week that, erm, when Russell had been, stayed back in the room, I was going to go back and relieve him, so I think we were joking about that ‘Oh Jane’s off to relieve Russ again’, so that was, I mean, that was the only thing I can think, that was just a, you know”.
	4078	“So it was all good spirits?”
	Reply	“Yeah, it was good spirits, it was like that joke again ‘Oh Jane’s got to go and relieve’, erm, so, yeah, there was nothing, you know, there was nothing odd or anything about it, it was just, just joking”.
	4078	“And because it will affect your recollection of what happened and things, how much had you drank that night?”
	Reply	“The thing is, that night I probably drunk less than a lot of the others, because I’d been at the table probably only for, well an hour, forty minutes at that, you know, not very long at all, by the time we all sat down and actually ordered the wine it was almost nine o’clock anyway because everybody was so late, so, you know, I wasn’t, I hadn’t had that much to drink and because we’d had more to drink the night before I think we were drinking more slowly anyway.  And I hadn’t had, whereas normally I would have probably had a beer on the beach, I can actually remember”.
00.52.08	4078	“Orange juice”.
	Reply	“It was an orange juice that we’d had on the beach.  So, no, I wasn’t, at that, at, especially, well, I definitely roaring drunk at that point?”
	4078	“And what about the rest of the group, can you comment on what they were drinking?”
	Reply	“Erm, no, we just tended to stick with, because the wine was included, we tended to stick with just the, the wine that was given, so.  I’ll tell you, the person who drank most of the wine was actually Fiona’s mum, Dianne was the, was the biggest drinker of the lot of us actually, which is quite”.
	4078	“It’s coping with all those children around her”.
	Reply	“Yeah, exactly.  So, no, I mean, nobody was, nobody was that drunk that night at all”.
	4078	“Right.  And you already mentioned that you think it was that evening, earlier on in the meal, that Kate had mentioned that Madeleine had made that comment?”
	Reply	“Yeah, the day before”.
	4078	“About her and Sean being awake?”
	Reply	“Yeah, the day before”.
	4078	“And you also mentioned, I think, that that was the evening where you had all commented on how well the holiday was going?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah, we’d, erm, it was, I think we’d all said it, because, well, as I say, the weather had been better, we had been to the beach and we’d just had a really nice day and it was almost like, you know, this is, you know, it’s been an ideal holiday for, you know, for all of us really at that point, so.  There was no, you know, under currents of anything being wrong or anything, it was, it was just totally normal”.
00.53.24	4078	“Right.  Okay.  So Matthew has gone to check, Gerry has gone to check, you have gone to check and now Russell and Matthew went together to check?”
	Reply	“Erm, yeah, so Matthew”.
	4078	“Russell and?”
	Reply	“Russell and Matthew went, yeah”.
	4078	“And Russell ended up staying behind because Evie wasn’t very well?”
	Reply	“Because Evie wasn’t, yeah, because she’d woken up”.
	4078	“So you rushed your meal?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“So you could then relieve Russell?”
	Reply	“Yeah, relieve Russell, yeah, sorry.  I can see the headline there”.
	4078	“Yeah.  Okay.  Do you remember if Matthew made a comment when he came back, other than telling you that Russell had stayed behind?”
	Reply	“Erm, no, not that I can remember.  He just, you know, he just, erm, I think Kate, I think maybe Kate said to him ‘Is everything alright’ and he said ‘Fine’, I think, you know.  I mean, she was, I think I remember her saying to him, you know, ‘Is everything okay’, but that was nothing out of the ordinary.  But, no, I can’t think, he just said, you know, he just said ‘Oh Russell stayed because Evie’s not very well’, you know, and the inevitable joke, you know”.
	4078	“Yeah, a bit of innuendo”.
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“And then what happened next?”
	Reply	“Erm, so I think the waiter has took Russell’s, because Russell’s food was there, so they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away’ and they kept that, they said ‘Oh we’ll take that away and keep that warm’.  So I’d finished mine quite quickly, probably, I think I was a fair way through or it didn’t take another four minutes or five minutes, and then I went back, erm, to find Russell sort of, you know, with, Evie was awake and I think he’d put her in the bath, because I think she had been, I think when he’d been in she had actually been sick, so he put her in the bath and he put the sheets all in the washing machine that was in the apartment. Because that’s another thing about the sheets, but we’d been doing washing all week, because you know what it’s like with kids, you end up with, so they were in the washing machine.  Erm, yeah, and then he, so I then, we were probably in there together for, I don’t know how long, five minutes of whatever, and then he went back to finish off the rest of, erm, well finish the rest of the meal”.
00.55.33	4078	“And what can you remember after that?”
	Reply	“Erm, well Evie was still up, so I was just with Evie in the room and I think it was getting quite and Russell had sort of said ‘I’ll go and finish my meal and then I’ll come back’.  So the next thing I can sort of really remember is thinking ‘Oh I wonder why he’s not’, you know, I think I was thinking ‘Oh he’s got chatting, he’s not gonna’, you know, ‘he’s not gonna come back’, blah, blah, sort of thinking along those lines.  So I don’t know whether it was the first time I’d looked out of the window to check, but I know it was the first time I thought, because I think it was odd, I looked out of the window to check, to see if I could see them still there, and that’s when the only person I could see still at the table was, erm, Dianne and everybody else seemed to have, seemed to have gone.  Which I thought was a bit odd, because I thought even if Russell would have come back, you know, I wouldn’t have expected everybody else to, to  have left at, you know, left at that point, so.  So, I mean, that’s the first time I thought ‘Oh’, you know, ‘What’s happened’, because I couldn’t, you know, I could see them actually sitting in the, sitting in the restaurant. But I don’t know how long that is from, but I think it must have been a fair while from, because I was actually thinking ‘Oh he should be back by now’, sort of actually, you know, to actually look out of the window”.
00.56.47	4078	“And what happened after that?”
	Reply	“Erm, I think that’s when I went back to the roadside, I sort of looked out of the roadside door.  I think I heard some shouting, erm, so I actually went to sort of put my head out the roadside door.  And I think it was Rachael that I saw first because she had run back I think to check that Grace was obviously okay.  And then I think Rachael said, you know, she told me what had, you know she said ‘Oh Madeleine’s gone’ or, you know, something along those lines.  And that’s, it was almost straightaway as she said that I sort of had that, this person sort of came into my head at that”.
	4078	“It was that quick was it after you?”
	Reply	“It was almost, yeah, I was sort of like, oh, it just sort of seemed a bit, the connection made, you know, I thought ‘Oh that person was a bit odd’, he sort of seemed a bit, a bit odd.  But I think at that point I was obviously, I think I actually might have wondered, wondered and, you know, I was sort of thinking ‘Well I’m sure it couldn’t have been’, but it did come that immediate into my mind”.
	4078	“So what happened from then?”
	Reply	“Erm, well I think I was in a bit of a, I mean, obviously, erm, the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ and they were like looking in the stairwell and what have you.  And Fi started running upstairs and that’s when I ran to Fi and said what I thought, you know, I said ‘I think I’ve seen somebody’.  I didn’t want to say to Kate at that point, which might sound odd now, you know, ‘Oh why wouldn’t you say straight away to Kate’, but, you know, the thought of telling the mother of a child that you might have seen being carried away is, it’s too horrible to even say.  So I just said to Fi, erm, you know, ‘I think I might have seen somebody a bit odd when I came back to do one of the checks’.  And I don’t know whether she, I mean, she was just sort of like, I don’t know whether she took it in properly, but, erm, and then they just carried on, carried on the searching.  They were sort of running around, I mean, I just stayed, erm, me and Rachael just stayed with, in our own, but we were sort of out in the alley, in the sort of stairwell outside our rooms, and we were sort of staying with the kids at that point, so we weren’t actually involved in any physical running around, searching”.
00.59.34	4078	“Did you stay sort of pretty much near to your apartment all night?”
	Reply	“Yeah, yeah, well Evie was still up at this point so I’d sort of got her, she was still awake, so, I’d sort of, well I’d got her, I was holiday her but sort of just standing outside the, the door of the apartment mostly, I didn’t really move.  Rachael, because Grace was asleep, she was more moving around more, trying to, you know, see what was happening.  But, no, I was more or less at the bottom, as I say, at the bottom of the stairs, I’d come down”.
	4078	“Who else did you speak to?”
	Reply	“I’m trying to think of the order, it was sort of like, it was Rachael first, then it was Fi and I can’t remember when Russell and Matt came back, they came back at, erm, tut, I don’t know whether they came back first or I told them or who else was there, but as soon, the Police, when the Police came, I know Rachael went straight away to get them to say, so that I could tell the GNR, I think, yeah, the GNR, what I’d seen, but I don’t know if I told anybody else, I can’t remember when people like Sylvie, who was the translator, I’m not sure when she arrived whether it was before the Police arrived or after the Police arrived or whenever, but”.
	4078	“But you told the Police when they came?”
	Reply	“Yeah, when they arrived Rachael I think went and got the GNR and I told the GNR chap and then when the PJ actually arrived they came and got me to go and talk to the, the PJ”.
	4078	“Were you able to then show them sort of in real terms where you had seen the man by actually physically taking them and showing them?”
	Reply	“No, they didn’t, they didn’t take me, the only time I ever showed them where I saw it is when (inaudible), but the chap on the stairs here again, brought me back in the middle of the night from, erm, erm, from doing the sketch, so this was like the second, the night after, so this was quite late, it was like three o’clock in the morning, erm, after coming, well about three o’clock in the morning after coming back from trying to do the egg with hair sketch, I said to him then.  I said ‘Can I show you where I saw this person’, because the Press had all gone by that stage and the rest of the day there’d been obviously quite a lot of Press there, but they’d all gone.  So I actually took him then and said, you know, ‘This is where, this is where I saw him’, but at that time in the night all the, all the, you know, I, I honestly can’t remember what I, you know, exactly what I said, but, but I just said I’d seen somebody and they just sort of wrote it down and that was, that was it really”.
01.02.07	4078	“Just to comment on the egg with hair sketch and I know what you are referring to because I think you have mentioned it to me before, but because of the lack of software they produced this image of”.
	Reply	“Yeah, they couldn’t do a face”.
	4078	“It was a blank face, wasn’t it?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“With hair on?”
	Reply	“With just a bit of”.
	4078	“And you refer to that as the egg with hair?”
	Reply	“That’s the egg with hair, yeah, sorry”.
	4078	“Well I knew what it was but I thought somebody later on listening to this wouldn’t”.
	Reply	“Yeah.  No, so that’s”.
	4078	“Right.  How are you doing?”
	Reply	“No, I’m alright”.
01.02.39	4078	“Are we carrying on?”
	Reply	“Yeah”.
	4078	“Do you want a break?”
	Reply	“No, I’m fine, yeah, no”.
	4078	“Do you want to go back over anything again?”
	Reply	“Erm, I don’t think so, because, I mean, to be honest, that part of the evening, between, erm, I can’t really, but I can remember seeing some of the Nannies, the only other thing I can remember probably before I spoke to the Police is some of the, I think when they realised she was missing, MARK WARNER sort of got everybody searching and I can remember some of the Nannies coming to the door and they took my number, my phone number, my mobile number and said ‘If we hear anything we’ll give you, we’ll let you know’ and that was three of the Nannies.  And Evie was still up at that time because I can remember them sort of, you know, saying ‘Oh hi Evie’, blah, blah, blah.  Erm, and I’m saying to them, you know, I was in a complete state at that point and saying ‘Oh I think I’ve something’ and them just saying ‘Oh, don’t worry’ or whatever, but, but I don’t, I can’t remember what time of night that is, but that might have been before the Police came as well or just after the Police, but they’re the only other real people I can remember talking to”.
	4078	“Okay.  Did you go to bed at all that night to get some sleep?”
	Reply	“Not until, it was probably about, I think about half four’ish, yeah, we tried to, tried to go to bed, I think purely because we knew in the morning we’d be asked for statements, so it was like (inaudible) sleep at all but it was like try and, try and get some rest to function in the morning”.
	4078	“What about Russell (inaudible)?”
	Reply	“Well him and Matt they were doing the, they were, I think they were sort of searching, I don’t know where they searched, but they, they were actually sort of running around actually looking farther afield, so didn’t really see them much at all.  I think that they did come back and as I say I can’t remember when they came back but I remember them coming back and then they went off again.  And then I think they, Russell was there when I spoke to the PJ, because I can remember Russell coming in with me when I spoke to the PJ, because there was Russell and Gerry was there as well in the apartment when I spoke to the PJ.  And that was the first time I’d ever been into their, into Kate and Gerry’s apartment through the whole week, I hadn’t, it might seem like, but we hadn’t really been into their apartment before”.
01.04.52	4078	“Sorry, was that on the night that Madeleine had disappeared?”
	Reply	“That was at three o’clock in the morning after she’d disappeared, yeah”.
	4078	“Okay.  Well tell me about that part then, how did you come to go into Gerry and Kate’s apartment?”
	Reply