David Payne May Hold the Key to Maddie's Mystery
Since the 16th of May 2007, the British authorities possess an official formal statement presented by Katherine and Arul Gaspar, regarding suspicions about David Payne's behaviour which might be consistent with paedophilia acts.
These statements only entered the Portuguese Public Ministry's Process of investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance in January 2008 - the third version of the famous rogatory letters had already been sent to the Home Office - read: 'English tantrum delays McCanns process'. It is unknown if these statements were followed up by both forces in the United Kingdom and in Portugal.
The Gaspars, both doctors and former friends of the Paynes and of the McCanns, explain in the following statements what led them to present statements: the time was in September of 2005, the place Majorca.
Vol. XIII, Pages 3909-3915
To: Ricard Paiva - Polícia Judiciária
From: DC 1756 Mike MARSHALL - Leicester Police Constabulary
Ref: David Payne
Date: October 24, 2007
As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.
I read carefully the written statements given by David Payne but was not able to extract any other information besides what is already known.
He declares that he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann’s apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. Similarly he does not indicate for how long he stayed.
When asked with whom he was on the afternoon of May 3rd, he declares that this information was already offered to the police and he cannot remember if anyone else was there.
He does not remember what he was wearing that afternoon.
He took part in the searches, having carried out most of them alone. He was at times accompanied by Matthew Oldfield.
He did not partake in the searches realized on the 4th of May, because, on this day, he spent to majority of time in the police headquarters.
For many of the questions, he does not give a complete answer, affirming simply that he has already given this information/declaration to the Portuguese police.
I examined again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states that 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to, if to Gerry or her own husband.
Her responses to the written questionnaire are vague, given that, she continues to answer to the questions with “they conform to my earlier deposition” or some similar statement.
The Gaspar Family Statements
pages numbered 3911 to 3915 of the Process
Last Name: GASPAR
Forenames: KATHERINA ZACHARIAS
Date of Birth:
Date of Testimony: 16/05/2007
Number of Pages: 8
I give this declaration in relation to the MCCANN family who are currently in Portugal. The MCCANN family is composed of Gerry MCCANN, his wife, Kate MCCANN and their three children, Madeleine, age 4, and Sean and Amelie, who are twins and of 2 years of age.
As it is widely divulged, Madeleine is not with her family presently, and has been missing for the last two weeks.
I will begin by explaining that I am married to Savio Gaspar and that we have two daughters, Ellena, who is almost 3 and Isabella who is now one year old. I have been married to Savio for 11 years. I am a general practitioner like my husband. I met my husband when we were (page 1) working together in Exeter, around 14 years ago.
To explain in what way we met the MCCANN family, I would like to state that my husband knows Kate, given that both attended Dundee University between 1987 and 1992. At that time, Kate’s name was Kate HEALY. I met Kate and Gerry for the occasion of their wedding, around 1998, in Liverpool. Both Savio and I went to the wedding because since Savio was an old friend of Kate, we were both invited to the event.
As far as I know Savio did not know Gerry before the above mentioned wedding. After that time, we met as friends and about three times we spent weekends away together. I would say become close to be intimate friends of Gerry and Kate.
I remember that in 2002 or 2003, Savio and I spent a weekend with Gerry and Kate in Devon. We maintained contact with each others via phone.
In 2002/2003 Savio and I were living in Birmingham and the MCCANNS in Leicester.
In September of 2005, Savio, I and Ellena, who at the time was 1 and a half years old, spent our holidays abroad, in Majorca. We went (page 2) on holidays with Kate, Gerry, and Madeleine, who should have been around 2 and a half years old and with the twins, Sean and Amelie, who were just months old. I remember that I was pregnant with Isabella.
On those holidays, with us, were as well friends of Gerry and Kate.
There was a couple, whose names were Dave and Fiona, and whose family name was PAYNE, I believe. I think that they were married and had one daughter with about 1 year old, named Lilly. I remember that on those holidays, Fiona was pregnant.
There was another couple, whose names were Tara and Stuart, and whose family name I cannot remember who were also on holidays with us. They had two boys, of 1 and 3 years old, whose names I do not remember. I did not know these two families until we went on holidays together. From memory, I think that it was David who organised these holidays and we all stayed together in a big house in Majorca.
We spend a week on holidays, however, the MCCANN family and the PAYNE family stayed for two weeks. I think that Tara and Stuart, and their two children, also stayed for just one week.
Two or three days had gone by, all of us staying in Majorca where, in general terms, we had fun (Page 3) with our children. Possibly around the fourth or fifth day abroad, I remember an incident that stayed recorded in my head. I say this in this way, because I have thought many times about the incident that I am about to describe.
One night, on holidays, the adults, that is, the couples that I mentioned, were on a patio outside of the house where we were staying. We had been eating and drinking.
I was seated between Dave and Gerry who I believe were both speaking about Madeleine. I don’t remember the conversation in its entirety, but it seemed they were discussing a possible scenario. I remember Dave telling Gerry something like “her”, referring to Madeleine, “would do this”.
When he mentioned “this”, Dave was sucking on one of his fingers, pushing it inside and outside his mouth, while with the other hand he made a circle around his nipple, in a circulatory movement over his clothes. This was done in a provocative manner and carried an explicit insinuation in relation to what he was saying and doing.
I remember that I was shocked at this, and looked at Gerry, and also at Dave, to see their reactions. I looked around (page 4) as if saying “did anyone else hear this, or was it just me”. There was a nervous silence registered in all the conversations and afterwards, everyone began talking again.
I never spoke to anyone about this, but I always felt that it was very strange and it wasn’t something that someone should do or say.
Besides this [incident], I remember that Dave did the same thing once again. When I refer to this, I want to clarify that it was during a conversation in which he was talking about an imaginary situation, though I could not say exactly what about. I believe that he was talking about his own daughter, Lily, though I’m not certain. He put one of his fingers in his mouth and slide it in and out, while the other hand drew a circle around his nipple in a provocative and sexual manner. I believe that he was referring to the way that Lily, would behave or do it.
I believe that he did this later on, during the holidays, but I cannot be sure. The only time, besides this one, that I was with Dave and Fiona was several weeks after the holidays, when Savio and I met up with Gerry, Kate, Dave and Fiona at a restaurant in Leicester.
I am absolutely certain that he said what he said and that he did the gestures that I referred, but that could have occurred in the restaurant in Leicester, though (page five) I believe that it was later on, in Majorca. When I heard Dave doing and making this a second time, I took it more seriously.
I remember thinking whether he looked at the girls in a manner different from me or from the others. I imagined that maybe he had visited Internet sites related to small children. In short, I thought that he was interested child pornography on the internet.
During our holidays I was more attentive at bath time after hearing Dave saying that.
During our vacation in Majorca, it was the fathers who took care of the children baths. I had the tendency to walk close to the bathroom, if it was Dave bathing the children. I remember telling Savio to be careful and to be there, in case it was Dave helping to bathe the children and, in particular, to my daughter Ellena. I was very clear about this, as having heard him saying that had disturbed me, and I did not trust him to give bath to Ellena alone.
When I heard Dave say that a second time, it reinforced what I already thought in relation to his thoughts about girls. During our stay in Majorca, Dave and his wife, Fiona, accompanied by this daughter Lily, took Madeleine (page 6) with them to spend the day, in order to give Kate and Gerry a bit of rest and time to be with the twins. When I say this, it is not that I was worried about Madeleine’s safety, since she was also with Fiona and Lily, and also with Dave, as far as I know.
As I already mentioned, I was only with Dave and Fiona on one occasion, after Majorca, and I have not spoken to them since that time. In the last two years, we have met, as a family, with the MCCANN, once in a while. That happens mainly at the children’s birthdays, a time when we get together.
The first time I had knowledge of the terrible news about Madeleine’s disappearance through the radio, my thoughts went immediately to Dave. I asked Savio if Dave was also on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal but he did not know.
I watched TV meticulously, and watching the coverage of the news, I understood that Dave was there, because I saw him, in the background, on the television images during the first days after the Madeleine’s disappearance. Based on that, I believed that he was on holidays with the MCCANN in Portugal. Today, Wednesday, the 16th of May of 2007, at 17:40, I gave DC Brewer an A4 page containing 2 photographic images. I am going to reference these images as (ref KZG/1) (probatory element) that may (page seven) be presented as mean of proof, if necessary. These photographs were taken during the holidays in Majorca. In the photographs, Dave is wearing a white t-shirt and the woman in the photograph corresponds to his wife Fiona. The man who is holding the glass of wine in the photograph is Stuart. These photographs were taken while we were at Majorca.
Last Name: Gaspar
Forenames: Arul Savio
Date of Testimony: 16/05/2007
Number of Pages: 5
I am the person designated here, and I live at the address referred on the back of the page.
These statements are produced in relation to the missing girl, Madeleine McCann.
I currently work as a GP at Saint Clements Surgery, Nechells, Birmingham, where I have been employed for the last nine years.
Madeleine is the daughter of Kate and Gerry McCann and our families are friends.
I have known Kate since 1987, when we met at Dundee Medical School, having since then, become friends. We have remained in touch during all this time and, in a general way, we meet up 3 to 4 times a year, speaking regularly on the phone or by email.
When we first became friends, in 1987, Kate was known as Kate HEALY, this was the case until she married Gerry at the end of 1990s. Kate and I completed our medical degrees in 1992, when each carried on with our lives, once we had begun our careers.
After I finished my degree I began my career in EXETER, and I think Kate went to GLASGOW. (page one)
I only met up with Kate again in 1997 or 1998. By then I was married to Katherina, we had both been invited to attend her wedding with Gerry.
After their wedding we lost contact again and I believe they went to NEW ZEALAND.
We only met up again in 2001, this time in Birmingham.
The couple visited us in the house where we then lived, in A.G., and this was, in fact, the first time I talked to Gerry.
I believe that at the time Kate and Gerry were living in Queeniborough, Leicestershire.
From 2001 and 2005 we were in regular contact and every once in a while visited each other’s homes.
We had planned holidays for the first week of September 2005 in MALLORCA, SPAIN, along with three other couples including Kate and Gerry. We did not know the other two couples, they were friends of Kate and Gerry, and we had never been with them before.
We all had children.
At the time of this holiday we had one daughter, E., aged 18 months.
Kate and Gerry had 3 children, Madeleine, almost two years old, and the twins, Sean and Amelie, both six months old.
The other couples were Dave and Fiona PAYNE, who had a daughter L., who was one year old, and S. and T. who had two boys, one aged three and the other one aged one. I do not remember S. and T.'s surname, nor the names of their children.
Katherine and I had booked the holiday for one week and the others two for two weeks. We stayed together in a holiday house [villa], which was large. (page two)
Although all of us arrived at this holiday house separately, Katherina and I arrived at the first day of the booking, extending our stay up to the end of the first week of the holiday period of two weeks.
During the period that we stayed at the holiday house, I remember a gesture made by Dave PAYNE.
I do not remember which was the context of the conversation that Dave and Gerry were having then, however I do recall vaguely, Dave using his left index finger to rub, with circular movements, his left nipple; whilst he put the head of his right index finger to his lips, touching it with his tongue. This happened during a meal, at the end of the day, in the holiday house, and though I do not quite remember the time or the day, I can safely say that we would usually dine between 19.30 and 21.00 every day. I believe this happened in the middle of our holidays.
I remember seeing that gesture, and I immediately thought it to be of extreme bad taste, independently of the context of the conversation that they were having. We were sitting around a plastic, rectangular shaped, white table in the garden of the house. I don’t know if anyone else noticed Dave’s gesture, apart from my wife Katherina. After this incident with Dave’s gesture, no comments were made and as far as I know, the gesture was not repeated.
During the rest of the holidays, no one made comments about that incident and I thought no more about it.
I can describe Dave as being a man of Caucasian race, measuring 1.78m [5’10’’], and of average physical complexion. He had brown, receding hair and used glasses/contact lenses, depending on the circumstances.
I can say that Dave was a pleasant person. I do not remember him having any unusual characteristics. (page three)
During the holidays, I have never seen Dave behaving in an inappropriate manner with Madeleine or with any of the other children. Dave was popular among the children, which I attributed to the fact that he was a close friend of the family.
I never mistrusted Dave. After the holidays there was just one other occasion when we were with Kate and Gerry and Fiona and Dave were also present.
That was in a restaurant in Leicester in 2005. I do not remember the name of the restaurant. Nor the exact date.
We were having a pleasant afternoon, just the three couples, without the children.
I do not remember Dave having behaved inappropriately on this occasion. Since December 2005, we have not seen or spoken to Dave or Fiona, only due to the fact of them being friends of Kate and Gerry, not for any other reason.
The last time I saw Kate, Gerry, Madeleine, Sean and Amelie was in March 2007 when they came to our house for the first birthday celebration of my daughter I. On Friday morning, the 4th of May 2007, Katherine and I had knowledge of Madeleine’s kidnapping on the TV news. We were very shocked and worried given that I considered them to be close friends.
It was during the days following the news of the abduction that we discovered that Dave and Fiona PAYNE were also with them in Portugal.
It was at that moment that Katherina showed apprehension at the gesture made by Dave in Spain, during our holidays, in September 2005. Katherina thought that when Dave made the gesture, he was referring to Madeleine.
I only understood that Katherina had also seen Dave’s gesture at (page four) at this time, given that I had forgotten the incident, never having been, therefore, a subject of conversation.
At the time, I did not have the impression that the gesture was referring to Madeleine.
It is my wish that the police are aware of my concern about the gesture made by Dave Payne.
Retroversion - translation back into the original language