1.Everyone shall possess the right to freely express and publicise his thoughts in words, images or by any other means, as well as the right to inform others, inform himself and be informed without hindrance or discrimination 2.Exercise of the said rights shall not be hindered or limited by any type or form of censorship Constitution of the Portuguese Republic, Article 37.º

Shannon Matthews search police 'will help look for Madeleine McCann'

Karen Matthews, Shannon's mother

The police squad that found missing schoolgirl Shannon Matthews is to help in the search for Madeleine McCann, according to reports.

The move follows a meeting between Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry and Home Secretary Alan Johnson.

The Child Exploitation Centre and Online Protection Centre (Ceop) has now approached West Yorkshire Police's major inquiry team which found Shannon, of Dewsbury Moor, in March 2008.

The Home Office is understood to be considering whether a fresh investigation into Madeleine's disappearance on holiday in Portugal in 2007 is necessary.

The search for Shannon was led by Det Supt Andy Brennan.

After a 24-day search she was found alive, hidden under the base of a divan bed at the house of her mother's uncle Michael Donovan, in Batley.

Donovan, 41, and Shannon's mother Karen Matthews, 33, were jailed for eight years for kidnap, false imprisonment and perverting the course of justice.

in: Dewsbury Reporter, 19.03.2010


  1. Either it is an other spin or it is serious.
    In any case,hopefully the PJ KNOWS about this and AGREES with it....because ONLY Portugal has jurisdiction over this awful mush.As stated billions times over and over again.
    But still,it seems extraordinary that a pair of criminals can simply dictate to police forces and authorities what they should or not do.It is beyond belief.
    On the other hand IF this is true then it is ample time that the tapa gang is re visited along with the mccnass,isnt it? Are we going to witness new developments soon or is it just an other hoax?


    Portugal,please don't had over your files. I feel a massive coverup ahead!!

    An English lady

  3. I hope all the people of West Yorkshire who have been actively searching for Madeleine have checked under their beds?

  4. i feel another white wash on the way.JUST WHO IS LETTING THE MCCANNS GET AWAY WITH THIS AND WHY?????,i say to portugal, keep the files close to your chest and DONT let any british police force near them as they CANNOT be trusted

  5. Poor Shannon was drugged by her parents.

  6. so if west yorshire police are going to help in this case,no need for a FUND then,so perhaps the mccanns will donate what is left of madeleines money to a REAL MISSING PERSONS CHARITY

  7. @2 .but why would anyone want to cover up the death of a little 3 year old child apart from the parents and friends.

  8. This is spin!! The McCanns are trying to cover their backsides and make it appear that they are interested in the case being reopened without really reopening it. They have to do something, especially after all the questions about whether they want to reopen the case or not. As Gonçalo Amaral has already said several times, it is all about "image".

    The UK police have no jurisdiction over the investigation in Portugal and legally and logistically it would be impossible for them to do anything. IMO, this will all die down and no one will remember this after a couple of days.


  9. The Leicester cops and the Pj must feel very insulted if this correct.
    If this is true, it shows how brave Mr Amaral and his team are, regardless of what happened. Do not give them the files, Portugal.

  10. Legislation shopuld be introduced,setting up an independent trust for any funds collected for missing people searches; making it illegal for relatives to hold the funds in their name- a carte blanche for potential fraud.

  11. Bring it on, say I.

    As we learnt at the injunction trial, give any real detective the full facts of this case and they'll only come to one conclusion. And it isn't one that involves hellish lairs or Posh Spice lookalikes.

  12. As far as I was aware, Shannon Matthews was found after a tip-off by people in the flat below where she was being hidden. Not through any special police squad investigation.
    If this investigation is really going to happen, it will probably be as thorough as the one done by Leicestershire police.....& we all know how good they were.
    Smacks of another cover-up, especially if the McConns are really as "delighted" about this as they are making out.

  13. I haven't read about this in any newspaper,i hope if true that they will do a thorough job of it and not be dictated to by the McConns,but i'll believe it when i see it.

  14. http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/

  15. In my opinion Yorkshire police can only review what LP have in their files, and what has been published by the PJ, so they're playing with only half the ball anyway. If it was a real investigation they would have to interview the Smiths and Gaspars. I doubt that will happen. So what is this? Somehow I can't see them coming up with the conclusion that there is no credible evidence that Madeleine was abducted which we know is the only truth, so what's the point, are they going to spin and discredit the evidence?

  16. Further to #12,

    I believe that is the case in the majority of serous crimes. They are ultimately solved by a tip-off from a person in the know. Here in Canada a search went on for several years for a rapist/murdered. He was finally turned on by his ex-wife. For all the work the police did, it appears that without the tip-off they wouldn't have found him despite a photo-fit drawing in the newpapers that looked just like the guy.

    There are so many CSI, Law and Order Type shows these days where a logical sequence of events is followed through in a very short space of time and a criminal is apprehended. In real life it does not seem to work that way or there would not be so many unsolved crimes, especially mising persons.

    My money is on a whistleblower to get justice for Madeleine. All it takes is one person to set aside their own selfish needs and do the right thing.

  17. Tim @ 12

    You stand correct. The child was discovered after a tip-off. The police did not find the child as a result of their investigations.
    If they now hope for another tip-off I think they are fooling themselves. Any conclusion a professional police force can come up with after analysing the files has to be the same as the PJ's: Maddie is not alive and there are strong indications the parents are involved in the concealing of her body.

  18. UK can have jurisdiction over the ' death' of a UK citizen abroad.

    They didn't before because it was a live PT investigation.

    It is now shelved and they can investigate it.


  19. Just a thought but this Yorkshire team of police officers do have experience of bringing to justice the parents and guardians that were trying to perpetrate a fraud on the general public... have they been tasked to do this again?

  20. Utter rubbish utter spin... as has been said thousands of times before...
    the incident took place on Portuguese soil...

    the British police can only assist the Portuguese police and not start leading any investigations.

    And as far as I'm aware, the case is dormant pending new information

    Nothing Is Happening - don't believe the UK press lies

  21. We have seen better reports than this, there are no quotes from the police, the Home Office or even the McCanns! The Dewsbury Reporter is just a little local rag and have clearly spoken to no one to research their story!

    Why are people who clearly do not understand UK law seeking to dictate it? There is a serious crime here against Maddie, a Ward of Court, no less, and England and Wales Police have full jurisdiction to investigate and prosecute those in England and Wales who are responsible!

    Any suggestion they are just going to investigate what Kate and Gerry tell them to and ignore the devastating facts against them on the PJ file is quite absurd IMO.

  22. has gerry fell out with the leicester police then,because i thought the mccanns were on first named terms with stuart(call me stu)prior
    and they were doing a grand job in the cover up(remember the gaspers statement)hmmmmmm

  23. If this was worth doing, why wasn't it worth doing two years ago? It's my view that nobody - Madeleine's parents, the police, the courts - nobody at all with any influence over this case believes that Madeleine is still alive, otherwise more effort would have been put into finding her before now.
    The authorities in the UK and Portugal would look very bad if the McCanns turned out to be guilty of a cover up, fraud etc, so I'm pretty confident that this investigation will not reveal anything negative about them. The Portuguese police should be mindful of what happened last time they entrusted vital evidence from this case to British organisations - I'm thinking of the DNA material that was destroyed by the UK lab after they had tested it.

  24. Personally it seems significant that the Yorkshire force and not the Leics force is doing it

  25. Poster 19, yes, exactly right.

    Bring on this new investigation. I think it is HYSTERICALLY FUNNY.

    After all, as a result of the investigation by this very same Police Force, Donovan, 41, and Shannon's mother Karen Matthews, 33, were jailed for eight years for kidnap, false imprisonment and perverting the course of justice.

    Now we just have to change a couple of names and add death, and Hey Presto, the result we've all been waiting for.

    Aunty Anti

  26. 212 Viv. Sadly |I think you are wrong. This is being reported elsewhere and is likely to be true.

    Like others, I fear a whitewash. As already stated above, this was no crack police force investigation, they simply got a tip off.

    By linking the Madeleine/neglect and loss case with Shannon, they risk a short term connection being made by the masses between two frauds, but ultimately - when the UK police announce that the McCanns are innocent (and no doubt with a lot of gumph about 'no evidence')- the masses will be convinced that if those who found Shannon and exposed fraud think the McCann's are innocent, then they must be!

    What is needed is for the UK police to co-operate fully and operationally with the Portuguese police. After all, didnt the UK police say that though they spoke different national languages, they spoke the same operational language as the Pakistani police recently?

    Stupid responses like the McCann's and their pals not having credit cards etc and last minute sharing of evidence of paedo behaviour by members of the Tapas 9 is not an acceptabel approach to international police co-operation!

    I suspect this will turn out to be a political whitewashing - an attempt anyway! There are far too many people know far to many facts about this case for anything but the truth to win through!

    Madeleine McCann, only the truth will do!

  27. Properdad- Thanks for the clarification on law. Viv- your faith in British justice is touching, but I don't think Alan Johnson would want the facts of this case to appear before a general election as he would certainly be out of a job, together with Gordon Brown and Co.

  28. Viv, absurd but not ludicrous?

    You sound a little as if you think that there are others outside of the Tapas 9 who are responsible for Madeleines death.

    Can you explain what you mean about people not understanding the UK law?

  29. Do you believe that any of the Tapas7 will ever open their mouth??
    They got their slice from the fund.....

  30. I am from West Yorkshire, i would never slate the police here as i know when Shannon was reported "missing" they worked really well on the case. BUT i urge the PJ do not hand over any files to the Mccanns, this is definately some white wash , for the MCCANNS to be suddenly all for the police to do this i cant help thinking the Leicester Police are involved in this too and we all know how they held back evidence about the Mccanns, so i dont trust this one little bit.

  31. http://ceop.police.uk/madeleine/madeleine.asp

    If you think that the CEOP or Government are taking an unbiased objective view or are likely to take an unbiased objective view, go to their site and listen to the Madeleine message they have there.

    It says she IS 6 years old, not that she would have been 6 years old or might be 6 years old. They implicitly claim that the parents and family of Madeleine arent involved, by saying not coming forward increases their 'agony'.

    In short, this organisation is taking the view that Madeleine was abducted, a theory which is supported by no evidence.

    Can anyone really doubt that if the CEOP is behind any review that it will not be an objective review that properly investigates....including investigating the fund?

    This is without doubt the beginning of a whitewash attempt which will aim to 'clear' the McCann's - that will be its intention.

    They probably only intend reviewing the file of irrelevant sightings. I see lots of international travel for some of the yorkshire plod coming up...New Zealand, Morroco, Spain, Holland, Germany...and no doubt that paedo in Hospital will be paid a visit!

    Tax payers money used to 'clear' the McCanns...what the hell is behind this level of protection!

  32. As a result of the investigation Shannon's mother found guilty and is in jail. Interesting parallels...

  33. So,more "Hokum" from the McCann Camp! This article in the Dewsbury Reporter ( a local paper in a small town )is full of holes. The source of the piece is stated simply as "According to reports",reports from whom? The Home Office is described as "Considering whether a fresh investigation is necessary" -----the Home Office's Writ does not run in Portugal! These supposed activities are all after the McCann's meeting with Alan Johnson the Home Secretary, he did'nt give them any new help----so they sought a meeting with the leader of the Tories to plead their case. Now according to this article, we have CEOP approaching the West Yorkshire Police's major inquiry team--------why ? To do what?

    The big "Whinge" of the McCanns for a long time now, has been that "Nobody is searching for Madeleine any more"!

    All that this present balony is designed to do, is to give the impression that THEY the McCanns are carrying on looking whilst the Portuguese Police are'nt and that nasty Snr.Amaral is saying that the child was not abducted !

  34. This is all spin, its was in the star, the worst UK paper for spin,The Shannon Matthews case was a result of the Maccann lies. They tried to get money by Lies, but were not as cunning as the Maccanns.

    This child was under the bed., for it to be as successful, as the Maccann case. Shannon would have had to be on the Bed so the Curtains could go Woosh Woosh, and her mother had to say the Magic words Clunk Click. With them 4 words anything is possible.

  35. Has Jim Gamble knocked the Home Secretary off his perch? Why has Jimbo decided West Yorkshire should sup from the Poisoned Chalice? Is there a job up- for- grabs somewhere or is the Chief Constable of W.Yorkshire choking on his tea at the horror of it all?

  36. Is this a confession? The McCanns want the same cops that uncovered a fake abduction and led to a conviction of the parents of Shannon Matthews, to investigate them?


    Yeah, it's spin - but whose spin?

  37. Oh dear. I've just read about the "Jettison Bettison" campaign. He's the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire.

  38. As far as I know the McCanns have to make a missing persons complaint and the police will investigate. They have not made such a complaint as of today and I doubt they ever will. This being the case, on what legal basis is this Yorkshire police department going to investigate Maddie's disappearance? They have no legal basis either to demand that the Portuguese police hand over all their files. If an investigation is officially opened into the child's disappearance then I am sure there will full co-operation between the different police forces. The McCanns have never wanted anything else other than a "review". I believe the McCanns are just in full spin and we should all be immune to this by now.

  39. The questions we should all be asking is why exactly is Jim Gamble involved in this case? What evidence is there that Maddie was/is exploited online? Why did Gamble send his men to Portugal even before British cops got there (according to Martin Brunt) and what role did Gamble personally play in the attempted framing of Murat? Remember that CEOP profiled Murat and concluded that he matched the profile of Maddie's alleged raptor.

  40. Bettison also involved in the Omagh bomb enquiry in 2003, when with Merseyside Police.

  41. Did the Kate and Gerry supporters arrive? Whitewash, trips to Morocco, when the British Police declare the McCanns innocent!!! I am not holding my breath... (apart from the subtle point that is a job for the Crown Court and not the police). Jim Gamble's business is the exploitation of children and that is precisely what this case is all about, so...

    Dream on x

  42. The following quotes may seem out of context but I trust you will be able to see how it all may fit together at a higher, conceptual level. Draw your own conclusions from there...

    8-} "The Glasgow University Media Group concluded that the news is not a neutral and natural phenomenon; it is rather the manufactured production of ideology...a sequence of socially manufactured messages which carry many of the culturally dominant assumptions of our society. On issues where the state is very sensitive...the news can become almost one-dimensional - ALTERNATIVES ARE REDUCED TO FRAGMENTS OR DISAPPEAR ALTOGETHER" (quote/unquote)


  43. @30,no they will not say a word to help madeleine,why should they when they have taken money (paper payout)as i dont beleive it went to the fund like they said it would,Nice little earner is madeleine.
    also dont forget the tapas have children of their own,i wonder what they will make of all this when they are old enough to use the internet

  44. Wonder why Kate & Gerry did not jump on the case of the little Boy Kidnapped(?) in Pakistan? After all, 3 were arrested in Spain and some more in France, connected with case. The kidnapping of the boy fit well on Mccann's Fairy Tale- An Organization crossing the world, involving a Country close to Portugal( Spain in some way). What is retracting the Mccann's for not using this case on their own profit? THE AMAZING AMOUNT OF MONEY WHICH APPARENTLY WAS HANDED OVER TO THE KIDNAPERS BY HIS FATHER, AND RECOVERED?
    Eh! EH! Mr. Edgar.... alive people can be found quickly, even in Pakistan. Another stone on MADELEINE ABDUCTION FAIRY TALE.

  45. Oh, what can people expect now?

    The exoneration or condemnaion or conviction of mccanns?

    Home office should ask them to freeze fund while review is going on if true. Me think, its just another mccanns fart!

  46. Amazing the Teddy Bear. OFF-COURSE WAS NOT A 5 STARS CUDDLE CAT. KATE IS AN INSPIRATION FOR ALL THE PERVERTED MOTHERS. She really deserved a place on BBC Radio Show last Mother's day.... BUT WITH KAREN AT HER SIDE, AS A PARTNER.

  47. Andy Brennan, Detective Superintendent, West Yorkshire Police

    Andy is a Senior Investigating Officer with the West Yorkshire Police Homicide and Major Enquiry Team.

    This chap was one of the speakers at the CEOP Conference that McCann spoke at in January.

    West Yorkshire Police also have Raymond Hewletts DNA as they have been investigating his links to historical abuse cases.

    The fact that CEOP (who assume Maddie was abducted) have appointed West Yorkshire Police does not look good.

    The MI5 / Government cover-up continues!

  48. There´s a pleasingly measured report from the Yorkshire Evening Post in the McCann Files:

    "Portuguese police were UNABLE TO DETERMINE WHETHER SHE (MADELEINE) HAD BEEN ABDUCTED and "archived" their inquiry in July 2008." I bet that´s news to a lot of the paper´s readership.

    Moreover, the reader is inevitably led to compare the Shannon Matthews with the Madeleine McCann case and to ask whether they are both instances of faked abduction.

    In my humble opinion things are looking up. When are Kate and Gerry going to start crowing about the success of their meeting with Alan Johnson? Have they really got what they were asking for?

  49. "Police chief defies Straw over masons" The Independent 1999. Guess who said "Some of my best friends are Freemasons"? The then CC of Merseyside, Bettison.

  50. Yet another smoke screen/timewaster ,but as others have said the "fund"should now be closed ,and all the Mc scums needed to do was ask the PJ to REOPEN the case ,but they will do anything apart from this ,but once again , the teflon couple are laughing

  51. Even Straw has capitulated now- it's OK for English judges to be masons.

  52. Is there anyone we can email about this? I emailled the Star reporter but no reply (ask me if Im shocked?) will it do any good to bombard the west yorks police and let them know in no unceratin terms that the ONLY people who claim ,or even begin to claim Maddie was "abducted" are the Mc Scums themselves ,I go SO frustrated that we cannot stop this circus

  53. Although it is all a load of rubbish and a complete sham, I am glad that this pair of scam bags are still worried and still losing sleep and feel that they have invent stories to cover their backsides.

  54. Jim Gamble was head of operation ORE, and is a freemason, freemasons look after there own, when he was head of operation ORE what do you think Jim Gamble would do if he found some of his freemason brothers where Pedophiles, turn them in? I don't think so, And this is the same Jim Gamble who is head of the CEOP, who are supposed to be protecting children

    The fact that Jim Gamble of the (CEOP) supports the McCann’s abduction fairy story speaks volumes,its Jim Gamble who needs to be investigated, but we all know that won't happen,

  55. "The Child Exploitation Centre and Online Protection Centre (Ceop) has now approached West Yorkshire Police's major inquiry team "

    so it was not he Mccanns who asked for this but the CEOP, still think then only way the truth will come out is if one of the TAPAs crew speakup


  56. "What I have been through is horrific, but what Kate and Gerry have been through is even more horrific.

    Mrs MacKeown is still defending her record as a mother, despite leaving Scarlett, who was just 15, by herself in India before she was raped and murdered
    Following "advice" from Mitchell she said of the McCanns (I wonder is this why he said he would actually act for her for free, I am sure her words were so helpful to Kate and Gerry, just like the further link to lovely caring mummy/fraudster Karen Matthews is, how they span the social strata)
    "Their nightmare has been worse. It has gone on for so long. You can see it in her face. I think I have a fair idea now what happened to Scarlett.

    "They don't know what happened to Madeleine."

    Kate and Gerry surely bunged her a few quid for that=))

  57. I am not sure if this is spin or not. West Yorkshire Police now involved...?

    Hewlett can still be framed..Things are getting out of control, the spin no longer works.

    The dogs findings have been ignored...

    Can anyone imagine the funeral for Madeleine ? the parents who never stopped searching...


  58. Ironside your post really concerns me. It is not the police who are trying to frame Hewlett, it is (or was?) Kate and Gerry McCann, or have I misunderstood you?

    UK Police went to interview Hewlett in his hospital bed about a historic case, but very pointedly refused to speak to him about Madeleine. They know full well who is responsible there.

    I do not think it is spin that W Yorks Police are involved, there have been direct quotes from other sources. It is disastrous for Kate and Gerry IMO. There does seem to be a lot of spin from their supporters claiming they have no jurisdiction however.... Kate and Gerry were insisting the case should be dealt with in Portugal, after they had got Ricardo Paiva the sack. Their audacity knows no bounds!

  59. A 'fresh' investigation? An independant 'review' of the case? - What utter rubbish!

    It was unanimously agreed between the British police and the Portuguese police that there was no abduction but sufficient indications to pursue a crime that involved the Mccanns. So, ruling out abduction, it is no longer the responsibility of the Portuguese to further investigate. The Mccanns are British subjects and will therefore be under the jurisdiction of the British police - not the Home Office or the CEOP or the British press!

    Again I say, police do not publicise their operational strategy to the world - and certainly not to the main suspects!

    It can take months and often years for a serious crime to be solved and this case is no exception!

  60. Please note the discontent of Julie Ward's father with the British Government....

  61. Viv, you seem to have missed the point being made here! The McCann's will be whitewashed by any review sponsored by the CEOP, they have alreadfy decided that the McCanns are innocent and that there was an abduction (go to the CEOP web site, watch the Madeleine 'please'.

    Are you trying to confuse the argument?

    Why would you do that?

  62. The wording says it all! 'Help to look for....'

    This is doing just as McCann wants, and it involves the CEOP - watch carefully, it will be about the 'irrelevant sightings' files - and it will result in Yorkshire police wandering around Europe.

    Madeleine was NOT abducted, this is absolutley clear - the key is the Tanner sighting putting Gerry into the same scene as the abductor - and Wilkins not seeing either Tanner or Abductor.

    The Smith sighting and the alleged (by Doctors no less!) paedo behaviour of McCann and his boyfriend Payne.

    Why did Payne go to the McCann apartment on his own - knowing thet Gerry wasnt there? Why would Kate jsut let him in - in her towel?

    Sexual issues are at the root of this, in my opinion.

  63. Has Raymond Hewlett's health suddenly deteriorated? Could this be why West Yorkshire Police are getting involved again?

  64. All's the Yorkshire police would have to do is look again at Eddie and Keela's findings get in touch with the PJ and demand they arrest and charge the McCanns . Case solved !

  65. Please can I nominate NORTH Yorkshire Police to investigate; the only one of the Ridings not to have been invited-unless anyone has info. to the contrary? Posters could suggest the best/worst forces to investigate, giving carefully reasoned arguments for their choice and we could have a vote. It's getting that ridiculous!

  66. "The move follows a meeting between Madeleine's parents Kate and Gerry and Home Secretary Alan Johnson."

    I wonder if this is actually a clever move on the part of Alan Johnson and this is not what K&G were after at all - despite saying they are "delighted" - I have great trouble believing anything that pair say.

  67. This is another piece of McCann PR which yet again attempts to get the message across ‘why would the Mc’s go to such lengths if they were guilty?’

    Well the Home Secretary may be considering asking the Portuguese to reopen the case and as we know the Portuguese are willing to do this if new evidence comes to light.

    No new evidence has come to light; therefore, it will remain shelved. The British Police can only investigate in this country and cannot march into Portugal and reopen the case and start investigating.

    So this is just McCann PR – they can sit at home in the safe knowledge that this current action instigated by them will not cause further investigation and this slither of PR shenanigans will make them look good to the uninitiated in the antics of Team McCanns’ PR machine.

  68. From now on, whatever happens, Karen Matthews and Kate McCann will be linked in the public's mind. This of course, will not please TM.Kate depends on her middleclass, hair-highlit image.

    In the Sharon Matthews faked abduction, her new stepfather, I think, asked the McCanns for money from their Fund.It was their activities that had inspired Karen and her accomplices after all. At the time it was still thought that the MCCanns would help out other families with missing children.They of course refused. It is amusing to see them now inextricably linked.
    And if I was Karen Matthews, in prison, I'd be complaining about this bad publicity, being twinned with the McCanns.




  70. Hi,

    A big thanks for signing the libel reform petition, coming to libel reform events, blogging, tweeting and pushing this campaign to the front of the political agenda.

    We need you to come to the Houses of Parliament next Tuesday, 23 March, for a mass meeting with MPs to convince them to commit to libel reform.

    The Libel Reform Campaign has booked Committee Room 15 at Parliament, and MPs know that we’re coming. Please, if you can, come and join us. Simon Singh will be joining us to tell MPs about the real effect of our libel laws.

    The political parties are on the verge of signing up to once in a generation reform of our libel laws. But we don’t have them signed up yet. This is our last chance to lobby parliamentarians before the general election.

    So here’s the plan:

    Mass lobby of Parliament

    2 – 3pm

    We’re trying to get as many campaign champions, press and MPs along as possible for a meeting 2-3 pm in Committee Room 15. You can come to this even if you don’t have an MP appointment. If you can, let us know you are coming by emailing us: news@libelreform.org

    3 – 4pm

    You can email your MP and ask them to meet you between 3 - 4 pm in Central Lobby. Even if your MP has signed the EDM on libel reform it is still worth doing this. (We’ve pasted all the information you need below and it is also at www.libelreform.org).

    Please help

    This is the closest we’ve been to fundamental libel law reform in a century, but we need everyone along to help it succeed.

    See you Tuesday!

    Mike and Síle

  71. Viv - posters like myself who have written letters to the Home Office, signed petitions, sent information to Joana, are not pro- McCann because we claim whitewash, police and CEOP collusion and the like. It would really cheer me up if I believed there would be a re-opening of the case. If we keep the pressure up, it could happen. Unless you have inside information, how would you know things are as you deduce? Your posts seem a little "uneven" at times. I think Ironside has a good record on this site, so I'll listen to what he /she has to say. Sorry if I have misunderstood what you are trying to say

  72. One thing is certain there is no or clearly never was any ongoing British Police investigation into the case. If there was there would be no need for a review of the cart as the horse has bolted. Review what? Unless the PJ co-operate so that McCann can get his hands on the files and of course what the LP may have ( if they ever bothered to do anything ). McCann will be heading up the review at taxpayers expense. Can we expect the reconstruction to take place and the 48 unanswered questions to be asked or what of the dogs? Can normal people believe that the idiot Police would arrest others for the evidence in the PJ files if it happened in the UK yet take no regard of the same evidence collected by the PJ? If the McCanns are happy then its a travesty and there is an agenda for them yet again.

  73. Anon 62, I believe they were playing tennis and Gerry asked him to look in on his wife.

  74. Hi 68

    The McCanns are much better cash extractors of course than hopeless Karen. They extracted half a million plus costs out of Express Newspapers and doing something like that always comes with a heavy price tag attached.

    So they choose their sleazy title, The Star to associate the McCanns with the sleaze and serious child abuse that they inspired. In a way I see Justice for Maddie every single day. There is nothing in The Star article that would give the McCanns a cause of action in libel, they just have to read it and weep.

  75. Why not the Scotland Yard???

  76. #18, you might be right but, nevertheless, any foreign police force still has to request the portuguese authorities permission to come and investigate on portuguese soil. If they do things "legally", that is...

  77. Perhaps Hewlett has died and it simply has not been made public. The West Yorkshire police need to explain their handling of the Molseed murder before they will be seen as credibly reviewing the McCann case. Perhaps someone should contact Ronald Castree's lawyer and see what he has to say about the latest task handed the West Yorkshire police.

  78. There is a possibility that they will use this review to try to set up Hewlitt, before he dies.

  79. Aren't Eddie and Keela employed by Yorks Police?

  80. http://gonaral.epetitions.net/sign_petition.php

    Sign this if you beleive in freedom of expression, it clearly does not have a wide enough circulation - less than 800 signatures!

  81. I wonder if anyone with some legal knowledge can answer this ?

    If a british citizen dies abroad, an inquest must be held in this country. It was something which became a bit of a hot potato in the case of the Princess of Wales, and the inquest wasn't held until a number of years had passed.

    So how does that apply here ?

    Well, it is my belief that the vast majority of people, whether they have a strong opinion or even interest in the McCann case believe that there is a very strong possibility that Madeleine is unfortunately dead. In those circumstances, and where the likelihood of her death was acknowledged, an inquest would then have to take place.

    The indications given by the dogs may not constitute evidence in a criminal case, but would there be a possibility that someone like Martin Grime might be asked to give evidence in the coroner's court as to the significance of the dogs' alerts, and potentially have the coroner rule on whether this means it is more likely than not that Madeleine died in the apartment ?

    And is this perhaps one possible reason why there is such insistence by the family that there is no evidence that Madeleine has come to any harm, and that she certainly might not be dead ?

    I would be interested if anyone can shed any light on this - what would need to happen before a coroner would call an inquest? Surely the current situation would not be allowed to prevail forever?

  82. There is something strange going on with this story. It now appears in about four tiny provincial newspapers in the Yorkshire area and is so similar in each it has the hallmarks of a Clarence press bulletin. The major press are not touching it. I cannot quite put my finger on it but I think it is something to do with that senior detective who was at the CEOP conference and I still think Gerry is getting Clarence to spin some bad news. Note the last paragraph of this extract which is an extra on the part of the Yorkshire Post,well done, and this does appear to be a direct quote from CEOP.... it is sensible to consult an available expert on child exploitation whether a "high profile" case or not. He was at that conference. I think the implication is he has been consulted for an expert opinion on Gerry McCann, it may break and so Gerry and Clarence are spinning it. But I have watched enought TV to know how our media work, they are constantly snoooping around up to all sorts of dirty tricks and in the case of Gerry McCann would most definitely be doing so. Part of Clarence's job would be to keep his nose to the ground and smell those leaks and rumours out and try and counteract them before they really develop. It is always the case that with someone like Gerry, the press know far more than they dare to release, but they drop hints and drop bits out, this is what The Star has done, part of the Express group who definitely play dirty against the likes of Gerry who has taken them for half a million, costs and a full spread apology, there is a price to pay for that. Like starting to drop out something nasty in The sleazy Star making some sleazy associations with Karen Matthews but nothing that amounts to actionable libel. See that scoping exercise phrase of Gerry's popping back in again. I wonder if it is CEOP directly that are going to hit him and LP as backup, they are still on the case, but CEOP are using this officer at West Yorkshire for specific advice and expertise. Just my thoughts of course.

    The Child Exploitation Centre and Online Protection (Ceop) has now approached West Yorkshire Police's major inquiry team which found missing Dewsbury nine-year-old Shannon Matthews in March 2008.

    The YEP understands a "scoping exercise" is being carried out by Home Office officials to decide whether a new investigation is necessary.

    The approach to West Yorkshire Police is believed to have come direct from Ceop but they have refused to comment on any specific case.

    A spokesman said that it was "sensible" for their organisation to avail itself of any expertise or knowledge available when carrying out inquiries into the exploitation of any child whether it was a high profile case or not

  83. Well the McCanns are quiet and Im not hopeful of any conviction against any of them in this country- I certainly dont expect Kate to be charged.

    What do I base this on? Gerrys puffed up chest at their recent celebrity dance and them running and giggling in the sunshine? No- the fact is I dont believe there is enough evidence not with the protection they have- here is an extended family none with any charm or obvious merit running a huge publicity campaign and off that a counter investigation - counter in every sense of the word. The fact theyre are no longer believed by the public who really cares? They dont.

    How is any conviction for fraud going to be made against them without proof they were complicit in Madeleines death? Where is the evidence because if there were no bank statements ect the first time theyre not suddenly going to materialise now are they?

    Weve heard all this talk of a UK investigation before I believed it last time I dont now- its a distraction as it was last time. The public will never accept the McCanns yet when their new source of finance has run out- when there is nobody left to sue then they will find them all jobs- its the way things are done.

    Madeleine may be important to some who follow this case others are more interested in its repercussions- one thing endures though Madeleine's little life ended in Portugal where with the care one would give the rubbish she was disposed of. To the McCanns she is ironically worth more dead and alive- I dont believe they suffer one jot or that they ever will- I havent for some time.

    For me this is over Im sure only of one thing all of those involved will be punished some have sympathy others dont.

  84. Anon 70

    Robin Cook (Scotsman) when he was the UK foreign secretary, said "there is no British race" and he was right.

    I am a member of the English group and I live in ENGLAND. In the British Isles we have Scots, Irish, Welsh and English and together we are the British.

    Treachery has allowed the Lisbon Treaty to be sneaked in through the back door. The Lisbon Treaty when fully implemented, will be superior to every European Union sovereign nations own constitution, and it is self amending

    God Bless the difference of every EU country,and please God, help everyone to wake up to the perils of the Lisbon Treaty.

    Traitors at home and abroad will not explain or debate with the people regarding the implications of what their loss of sovereignty means. They are too busy feathering their own nest,at the expense of our Freedom and Democracy,

    An Englishman

  85. Anon 62
    "Why did Payne go to the McCann apartment on his own - knowing that Gerry wasnt there? Why would Kate just let him in - in her towel?
    Sexual issues are at the root of this, in my opinion."

    He said he was there for 30 MINUTES, she said 30 SECONDS.
    Is this a sexual stereotype ?

  86. And another thought.
    Whatever they may say, West Yorks and the SIO in particular were made to look fairly silly over the Matthews Faked Abduction.
    The policy decisions of the SIO wil have cost the force a huge amount of money. Major enquiries are now "costed", and the total amount wil he been calculated.
    Will he/they make the saame mistake again, or will they be very much more cynical about what they are told, and demand proof at every stage.

  87. Petermac ...loved the stereo comment!

  88. Anonymous 77 said ... "#18, you might be right but, nevertheless, any foreign police force still has to request the portuguese authorities permission to come and investigate on portuguese soil. If they do things "legally", that is..."

    Would a UK police force need Portuguese authority to access phone records and bank details of the Tapas group though?

  89. poster 71 ,Ditto, I too sometimes struggle to who`s side Viv is on ,this is not a personal attack viv,but sometimes you leave doubts in my mind as to who you are backing up

  90. Anon 88
    Yu'v got to laff, a'n't yer !

  91. Anonymous @62.

    Do you really believe Payne visited K.McCann? Remove him and the time that Madeleine "vanished" moves from 17.30.

    There is no independent witness to his visit.

  92. I see no real reason why the case cannot be re-opened except a reluctance, for whatever reason, to do so.

    Kate McCann made clear on the McCann 'documentary' that the reason her suspicions were aroused enough for her not to just leave the apartment having listened to see if the children were awake, was the door being in a slightly different position than when the McCann's had left it (she says 'when we left it').

    she is admitting that it was a 'listening' service they were replicating. This is supported by her expectation that the door would have been in exactly the same position as when 'we' left it. This must refer to her and someone else. That must therefore have been her and Gerry.

    That means that Gerry's tale of actually entering the room and looking down on Madeleine, the 'proud Father' moment, is not true. Surely if it was, he would by the time of the 'documentary' have mentioned to Kate that he moved the door (or would he have replaced it in the precise position he and Kate had left it, or did he slip carefully through the gap so as not to disturb the door's position? Clearly ludicrous suggestions.

    If the McCann's (and their friends) only replicated a 'listening' service, then Madeleine could have been taken at any time between the McCann's abandoning the children and Kate discovering their 'abduction'...sorry I meant Madeleines abduction'.

    If Gerry lied, or Kate lied (objectively, one or other must have done) then such a lie would compromise the 'search for Madeleine' as it diverted the police form that search with other matters - i.e. it confused the initial critical moments and caused the investigation to be based on a false premise - an unsound foundation.

    Even if they were 'only' protecting themselves from accusations of neglect, they must have realised the implications of the damage to the investigation.

    To take such a risk infers either they accepted the risk, or knew it was no risk. In either case, there is a firm basis for the case to be re-opened and for it to focus on the McCann's and their friends to confirm the basis of the investigation.

  93. Has anyone got a contact name/address/email address for whoever is in charge of this supposed investigation at Yorkshire Police?

    In my opinion, G & K have committed a crime and got away with it by being protected by the British Government. My only question since the beginning is "Why?". The repercussions are massive for freedom of speech, for the European power balance, for promoting safeguarding children and for corruption triumphing over justice in the UK.

    However, all of this does not mean that we cannot form a pressure group and I will continue sending letters, emails and complaints, otherwise I will get depressed - and that isn't going to happen.

    I hope Eddie and Keela are fit and well. Good dogs.


  94. Estes Mccann e o seu team parecem o CLUBE DOS PERDIDOS. Ja nao sabem o que hao-de inventar para se manterem a tona, ou melhor, A DERIVA. Estao nitidamente a deriva. a ser verdade este novo episodio na saga Maddie, acabam de dar uma bofetada nos detectives privados, mundialmente apresentados como os SUPER DOS SUPER. Entao os reformados do MI5 vao ser substituidos por uns GNR de outra esquadra de Provincia? A de Yorkshire.... Comico, anedotico se nao fosse tao tragico. Os Detectives privados sao de facto neste Clube de Perdidos, os maiores incompetentes e por isso so podem ser coadjuvados por outros incompetentes tao basicos e tao provincianos que se rendem a uns 'pounds' magicamente transferidos do Fundo para os seus salarios, durante parcos meses. Vao ficar estrategicamente sentados nas suas cadeiritas, a gerir as mentiras estrategicamente plantadas nos jornais pelos cerebros da jogada, os advogados e o porta-voz. Nao fosse o facto de o circo ja estar no ar ha 3 anos e da imagem da crianca ter sido vendida ao desbarato como um sabonete para todo o tipo de borbulha, estes GNR de provincia, nem sabiam ou reconheciam o que estavam encarregues de procurar. Sempre gostava de os ver responder a um jornalista a serio numa entrevista de rua, a proposito do circo maddie- ERA UMA CENA DIGNA DOS MELHORES 'APANHADOS'. Enfim... gozemos o circo, que este episodio nem tem enredo para chegar ate a Pascoa.
    Dave Edgar e o seu Partner, se 'os' tiverem no sitio, tem de comecar a pensar numa estrategia para processarem Kate e Gerry, por os terem burlado. Usaram-nos numa campanha mundial para procurarem uma crianca que nao existe e resolverem um rapto que nunca existiu. Deixaram-nos na posicao dos detectives mais incompetentes do mundo, ja que ao fim de anos de investigacao sem barreiras, sem limites, sem burocracias, sem requerimentos a preencher, sem necessidade de avale de juizes ou superiores hierarquicos para executarem deligencias,com rios de dinheiro, a investigacao produziu ZERO. De Maddie, nem sinal... De rapto.... nem cheiro ou sombra.
    A PJ, limitada por meios, pressionada pelos Media e pela politica, controlada por procuradores e superiores hierarquicos, dependente de burocracia e autorizacoes legais para todas as deligencias, produziu mais resultados e mais consistentes, em poucos meses. ENTAO ONDE ESTAO OS BURROS??? Como diz o outro 'E O BURRO SOU EU???!!!' Fraco cerebro, o destes detectives que julgavam que bastavam as palavras de um par de medicos da provincia, para convencerem o mundo inteiro. E ASSIM SE DEIXARAM SEDUZIR PELAS LIBRAS FACEIS DE UM FUNDO FRAUDULENTO- O que nao e honrosamente ganho, raramente ou nunca premeia com honra quem dele usufrui.
    Vamos ver o que a Esquadra de Yorkshire reserva para o ovinho da Pascoa, se Madeleine... se KATE E GERRY com a enorme gemada que tem alimentado durante estes anos. QUANTO MAIS SE ESFORCAM, MAIS SE LHES VE A MENTIRA E A FRAUDE.

  95. And Yorkshire police is going to look for other British missing persons? If not, WHY?

    And why Yorkshire police and not Scotland Yard? What Scotland Yard find in Portugal, related with Maddie and her parents, that made them inconvenient and a police force to avoid?

    The answers of the questions above, which we all know, speak volumes and tell us the truth- Madeleine abduction is a farce, the most giant fraud in the modern world.... undersigned by the British and the Portuguese government. A shame, if we take in consideration that this governments were elected by people who they foolish without respect.

  96. #89, of course not, I'm only referring to investigations within the portuguese borders. I believe it is just what I wrote in my post...if you did not read it properly it's your problem, not mine.

  97. to anon 85: Could you take Irish OUT of that, please.


  98. Re-post # 82 Bridget,there could be another factor to consider regarding your query over an Inquest into a death whilst abroad,Madeleine McCann is still a Ward of Court in this country. I wonder what duties this might oblige the Court to enforce ? As it is close to the third anniversary of her disappearance, without trace or valid sightings anywhere in the World,could the Court request an Inquest to try to determine her fate ? Perhaps some friendly "Legal Eagles" out there can help with this one ?

  99. 'A mistura entre a comunicação social e a investigação criminal é explosiva no sentido de que nos dá cabo da investigação criminal....'
    Maria jose Morgado, Procuradora do Ministerio Publico.

  100. Bridget 82 - A few months back the Jailhouse Lawyer was thinking along the same lines as you and he said he was going to apply for a death certificate for Madeleine in order to bring about an Inquest. I don`t know how far he`s progressed with this. Just had a look on his website and I can`t immediately pin point where I read it, but its there somewhere.


  101. http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2010/03/19/ng.aruba.possible.skeleton.cnn&hpt=P1

    Is this another crime solved by accident or coincidence?

    They may yet be hope for Madeleine.

  102. On the McConns "My gut instinct is that some big secret is probably being covered up.After all this time and pressure,i cannot believe that nobody wants to speak.I have a real suspicion that we are not being told the whole truth" Former deputy Chief Constable, John Stalker.

  103. "Statistically 70% of all the violence against children is caused by the parents,family members or friends".Criminal Psychologist Dr Christian Ludke.

  104. "Sometimes there are forces and events too big,too powerful, with so much at stake for other people or institutions,that you cannot do anything about them,no matter how evil or wrong they are and no matter how dedicated or sincere you are or how much evidence you have.This is simply one of the hard facts of life you have to face".10th CIA Director,William Colby.

  105. Why are so many people convinced that the police do not have possesion of the Mccanns financial records, credit card transactions, telephone calls/text messages, medical records or anything else that relates to their existance?

    The plausibility of a straightforward abduction has been totally dismissed by British and Portuguese police following the preliminary investigation. During the early stages of the investigation the police gathered sufficient indications to lead them into an entirely different viewpoint - that of a very serious crime, as can be gleaned from the case files and Mr. Amarals book.

    As the abduction theory was ruled out the case was shelved by the Portuguese as they had exhausted their input, being that of investigating a possible abduction. The abduction scenario was of course perpetuated by the Mccanns so as to maintain the dellusion of their innocence, at great cost to the Portuguese authorities and in some respects its citizens. This situation cannot go on indefinately, with fake sightings and witnesses. The Portuguese police performed their duty with dilligence and integrity and once the possibility of abduction was negated and all other avenues pursued their function ceased to be necessary.

    Apologies for being repetative but again I believe that as British citizens any crime that they may have committed, even if on foreign soil, will be investigated by the British authorities (in collaboration with the likes of Interpol, Portugal etc) which I consider to be the case in this instance. There is a distinct possibility that Mr Amaral and his team where kept in the dark for reasons of confidentiality surrounding the case, also as the investigation turned in a totally different direction there was no necessity to disclose the Mccanns personal details to the Portuguese.

    In the case of any crime, banks, credit card companies, telephone companies or whatever else, cannot withold information from the police if that information be needed to solve a case therefore in my opinion it is nonsense to assume that this area has not been pursued. It also my belief that the Mccanns and their 'friends' are currently being investigated which will hopefully lead to justice for Madeleine!

  106. I think that is the point, Portugal have done all the investigations there are to do in Portugal. Not once but twice! Gerry McCann wanted them to start yet again in Portugal because he has been running a campaign since January 09 for certain that they now decided that is where they should be looking. It was running from Jan 09 because they did not get the file until July 08 and they need time to carefully prepare these campaigns, they get Eddie in with a new strategy. We have had public relations campaigns in Portugal to get the public on side and phone Isabel with information. It does not matter what information they get, anything just to keep running the concept they are innocent and they should be given yet more money to look for her.

    The notion that Portugal and UK are in any sort of disagreement about this case is a false notion. Both know the McCanns are guilty. And no, UK most certainly do not need the permission of Portugal to investigate criminal suspects in the UK. They have all the information they need from Portugal. As they keep pointing out, if they need any more Portugal will help us once again. This case does involve child exploitation and abuse and that is why CEOP have been involved from the very outset. Police often have information about people that has not developed into any criminal conviction due to lack of evidence, that does not mean they do not know a great deal about that particular offender.

  107. http://foilettertothehomeoffice.blogspot.com/2010/03/home-office-friday-19-march-2010-head.html

    Lets make sure that any review is not a whitewash!

  108. Number 83 theres a small piece about this in todays sun

  109. Peter Mac and just to take that a bit further, Payne then admits he did not go to the apartment and see Madeleine at all that night (see email exchange between Ricardo Paiva and Dc Marshall Oct 07)

    Was Gerry trying to implant the idea that Maddie may have died in the company of Kate at that time? That she was just not safe to be left with the children? Remember Philomena's remark, when Gerry was away he would always go and get someone to stay with Kate, that was not very nice! I think Maddie was even less safe still in the company of her daddy!

  110. From France : the unresolved case of a woman who disappeared 10 years ago.

    No corpse, no confession, no other evidence but the missing woman's mattress that was dumped by her husband a few days after his wife disappeared.

    The husband was cleared by jury the first time - then the wife's family appealed against that decision but they definitly lost the case today. the husband left the court free.

  111. Further to my post above, I am now quite convinced that this idea of W Yorks looking for Maddie is nothing more than McCann spin to further discredit both the PJ and Leicester Police because Gerry is not fond of either. We have just one comment from the Home Office, in a very reputable paper The Daily Telegraph and it says this:

    “A Home Office spokesman said: ‘We can confirm that the Home Secretary had a private meeting with Kate and Gerry McCann. Leicestershire Police stand ready to co-ordinate and complete enquiries if further information comes to light in the UK; or if requested to do so by the Portuguese authorities, who continue to lead on the overall investigation’.”

    In short those four reports in the Yorkshire press were put there by Clarence Mitchell and are pure rubbish!

  112. http://frommybigdesk.blogspot.com/

    interesting article from 2007 highlighted on Anna Esse's blog

  113. Wonders never cease ,bent Mps ,ready to take backhanders ,The Mc`s fund and the backers big bank accounts CAN help the "cause"

  114. SB Thanks for some straight talking plain common sense.

    I think the really disastrous bit for Gerry McCann is that in England and Wales those text messages he received, fourteen the day before and four the day after will be evidence against him. As you say any company or the NHS etc have to disclose information to the police in relation to a serious criminal case, there are no ifs or buts about that, they will have everything on the McCanns.

    Another form of evidence that is always relevant and admissible in a serious case is the result of bugging by the Police and Security Services, something the McCanns and Co have undoubtedly been subject to. It may well take a long time for them to gather sufficient evidence.

  115. Anon 77&97 No need to get all tetchy - I was neither having a go at you nor your post, merely using it as a vehicle to bring up the subject of phone and bank details, which the Portuguese authorites were unable to use or access for one reason or another - I fully comprehended your post and agree that a UK force will have no jurisdiction on Portuguese soil - however a UK investigation is not necessarily pointless, as I reiterate, there are lines of inquiry a UK force can investigate that the Portuguese couldn't - bank details, phone details, fraudulent fund, corrupt associations, K&G's house? Wouldn't everyone welcome that? Some investigation into these matters is surely better than no investigation at all. Sadly the general consensus seems to be that this story appears to be spin, so it's rather a moot point ... for the moment.

  116. Post 94. I think you could write to the chief constable (check the website) regarding anything you wish to say. good luck.

    Perhaps you can watch this space too:


    for a reply.

  117. 112 Can you provide the link?

  118. According to the statements of Kate, Gerry and Payne,
    Payne went to the 5a at 6.30 pm.
    And Payne stated that all 3 angels were in pajamas( or did he tell it in an interview?}
    If he stated it at the first statement or the second one, I don't know.
    He never officialy denied his visit to the apartment.
    But somebody stated that Kate was bathing the 3 children at that moment.
    You can see it on Amaral's documentary and Amaral based it on official statements.

  119. The fact the Paynes never left the table and the fact they were the only ones with a monitor, that make them suspects, imo.
    Who knows all of them had each a monitor, I can't imagine they never brought it with them, and perhaps it disappeared in the blue bag, together with clothes they used to clean the floor.
    That is why the blue bag disappeared.

  120. @92

    Payne in his statements to Leicestershire police, he could not give which direction he approached the apartment from or at which time. He could not say whether he visited Kate and the kids before or after going to his own apartment to change clothes. Added to which his wife Fiona appeared to know not much about this visit either. Which in itself is odd that Payne would not have mentioned it at that time to his wife.

    Take Oldfield out of the equation too I say, as that patio door was not left unlocked! If it was, Kate and Gerry would not have used the front door that evening. (Kate changed her story at a later time from the original version, ie that she entered by front locked door) No way did Oldfield check on those kids. He didn't know them. And they didn't know him. He'd never been in that apt and neither had the rest of the bunch - not to check on them anyway during that holiday.

    They've lied. Could be they lied out of some kind of misguided loyalty and did not know what they were covering up. But they lied all the same. And add J. Tanner and the dodgy R. O'Brien to that list. He claims to have had the key to apt 5a on another evening and checked on McCann kids. Now someone is lying here too, as the McCann's say no one checked on their kids that week! She claims to have seen Gerry Jez and a man carrying off Madeleine, and felt it not necessary to tell the McCann's until around 4/5 hours later.

    Pull the other one!

    @92 you are right, take Payne and most likely the rest of them out of the equation aaccording to the story we have been fed thus far. Add a couple of this nasty bunch straight back in again for the REAL version of events as to what happened to Madeleine. The version the world has yet to hear.

  121. Is the CEOP mixing up in this?
    In order to control the police?

  122. Anon @ 93
    'Kate McCann made clear on the McCann 'documentary' that the reason her suspicions were aroused enough for her not to just leave the apartment having listened to see if the children were awake, was the door being in a slightly different position than when the McCann's had left it (she says 'when we left it')'

    Paying attention to such ridiculous details, as the position of the doors and cortines, after her own child went missing, is another lie. Normal people, when face that situation they despair and panic and just went crazy looking for the child everywhere. No time or mind to pay attention to that details. She is lying. Lies, one ofter the other.
    I have childs more or less with same age, and it was amazing to see what this parents told the police, about this holidays. Everybody with childs know that holidaying with small childs was not a relax time. We don't have time to pay attention to such details, like the position of the doors and the cortines. We pay attention to the clothes of the childs, the beds, if they will feel warm or cold, if they will breath well, if there is no danger furniture's around, etc. Specially.... WE KNOW HOW WE LEFT THE MAIN DOORS, OPEN OR CLOSE, because the way we left the main door imply a previous decision made before leaving the flat and counting with Pros and Antis. Off-course a stupid decision to leave 3 babys supervising themselves at night in a strange environment.
    PJ MADE A HUGE ERROR BY NOT FRAMING THE ALL GROUP IMMEDIATLY AFTER THE FIRST STATEMENTS THEY GAVE TO GNR. IF they do it, perhaps by morning Madeleine will be found near the resort since there will never had an opportunity to ask the church keys.
    UNFORTUNATLY, PJ WAS FRAMED BY THE BRITISH POLITIC SINCE MINUTE ONE. WHY, was the Portuguese minister of Justice and the head of PJ, called before calling the Inspectors who work at the crime scene? WHICH MESSAGE THEY WERE DESPERATE TO SPREAD? ABDUCTION OFF-COURSE!!! AN ABDUCTION WHICH THEY KNOW, THERE WAS NO EVIDENCES TO LET A NORMAL INVESTIGATION FOLLOW THAT WAY, THEN THE WAY NEED TO BE FORCED.... BY THEM, THEIR FRIENDS AND THE ALL CONNECTIONS AT THE TOP. AND THE 'BRIGHT' Portuguese minister of justice and the head of PJ, SAID YES... because they are a group of British doctors and they manage to foolish them saying they are related with powerful people in the British government. According to my feeling, they just know at the beginning, the Twins God Father, Nobody else. The rest came as an avalanche in result of all the spin they manage to pass in to a Media campaign with help of the vultures in some British Media. AND IF THERE WAS NO MITCHELL, THE ALL FAIRY TALE WILL END UP LONG TIME AGO, when they were made arguidos and left Portugal. Mitchell is the ENGINE OF THE LIES SINCE SEPTEMBER OF 2007 and he will jump in all the branches to avoid reopening the case. He know, if the domino start falling down, he cannot escape.

  123. Madeleine e um caso de 'Perdidos e Achados'.
    'Nos perdemos uma coisa. Agradecemos a quem a encontrar, o favor de contactar..... ou o nosso Findmadeleine, ou a policia local. Nao oferecemos recompensa mas prometemos sigilo e anonimato'. Gerry mccann

    Interessante, a ser um rapto, e o unico em que os lesados apesar de terem um Fundo milionario, nao oferecem uma recompensa, pequena ou avultada, ao raptor ou a quem o denuncie para o seduzirem. Preferem pagar detectives, advogados e Porta-vozes. Ha-de haver uma explicacao Freudiana para tao bizarras opcoes. Tambem e o unico, em que o raptor apesar de saber que do outro lado ha um Fundo milionario e uma recompensa oferecida por um jornal, nao pede um resgate. Tem nas maos um material galacticamente reconhecivel, que nao serve para nada a nao ser para uso pessoal. Nao pode vender ou alugar porque seria cacado na transaccao. Mesmo assim resiste a tentacao do resgate, podendo largar a crianca algures em qualquer lugar do mundo ja que a seccao de 'Perdidos e Achados' tem a dimensao do planeta. Grande raptor, nao ha duvida que nao e negligente. Nao abandona a crianca seja dia ou noite e sob esse aspecto, a coisa perdida esta em boas maos, melhores do que aquelas que a querem achar depois de a terem perdido de forma tao estranha e bizarra.

  124. Anon 92

    Agree. I think David Payne's visit has been used as an 'evidence' that Madeleine was alive at that time. I also think nobody saw Madeleine alive from 17.30.

  125. Good morning #116, Spikey, from #77 and #97,
    No problems, I too apologize, I can see now that maybe I was a bit over the top in my reaction, sorry!
    I surely would welcome a full british investigation on the Tapas9 financial and health records and all their phone records too. Their lives should be "dissected" to the core, "no stones unturned", who knows what "skeletons" some of them might have in the proverbial "closets"?...

  126. #113,
    Thank you for that link! I've just read it and these two bits got me thinking and wondering...

    "Another witness has come forward to refute the testimony of a third friend Jane Tanner, 36, who told police she saw a man carrying a child rushing from the Ocean Club complex at around 9.15pm on May 3.

    Yesterday it was reported in Portugal that a new witness, an unnamed Irishman, told police he was in the same spot as Miss Tanner at the same time and saw no one. He is the second independent witness to dispute her story and police sources said they viewed Miss Tanner’s evidence as "unreliable" because of inconsistencies."

    WHO is this "Irishman"? If he was on the street, on the same spot, at the same time as Tanner, how did she not see him and neither did Gerry and Wilkins? None of the three have mentioned anyone else being on the street, no one passing by, did they? Why haven't we heard more of this or see it discussed in blogs? Is this in the files?


    "Now Dr Payne’s husband – medical researcher David, 41 – has claimed he saw Madeleine being put to bed when he visited the McCann flat at 7pm. Before his new testimony, police sources admitted they could not confirm the whereabouts of Kate and Madeleine after 1.29pm that day.

    Kate’s movements were said to be unaccounted for until she sat down to have dinner with Gerry and their friends at around 8.40pm.

    But the McCanns believe Mr Payne’s testimony will be crucial in proving their innocence. That would leave just an hour and a half in which they were supposed to have killed their daughter and disposed of her body."

    This could mean that the "30 seconds, 30 minutes" Payne visit to 5A is also another McCann invention, damage limitation! It might never have happened!Surprise, surprise...(or not)!...

  127. Speaking of bent MPs, Margaret Thatcher (ugh) thought of a way to give a pay rise, an expenses fiddle, later leaked to the Daily Telegraph.

    Stephen Dorrell McCann friendly Conservative MP, Leicester, took full advantage of these little perks but still struggled to pay his bills. One can understand his sympathies with Kate and Gerry.

    "This is Glenfield" tells us all about, lol, so close to Gerry, no doubt!

    I wonder if the delightful Mr Dorrell got the equally delightful Muck I mean McMillan Scott to take the Mucks on a nice little jolly to Brussels, did the tax payer pick up their "expenses"?


    What an urban myth the labour party are helping Gerry!

  128. S.B, @#106 said:

    "Why are so many people convinced that the police do not have possesion of the Mccanns financial records, credit card transactions, telephone calls/text messages, medical records or anything else that relates to their existance?"

    Well, if the british police did investigate those and came to the conclusion that they had no relevance for the solution of the case why didn't they just say so? Why the lies of not knowing of any bank accounts or no credit cards, and the silence about the medical records? And, back then, it was a portuguese investigation, it was not for the british police to judge if the requested records were relevant or not, even if they thought so they should have forwarded them to the PJ all the same, if for no other purpose, at least to be added to the process file. Why would the PJ have to take their word for it and forget about it?

  129. Maybe it IS spin, but surely all this association with the Shannon Matthews case is very "unhelpful" to the McCanns. It´s a pity for them that they can´t call upon the services of the police force that found Jaycee Lee Dugard (she who gave them so much hope and apparently came to "no real harm".)

  130. Thanks #117, from #94.

  131. 130 Think about it, yes initially unhelpful, but then very helpful when the McCanns are exonorated by teh 'investigation' (AKA review!) - who better to have saying 'its not a 'Mathews' case!).

    Clever buggers arent they!

  132. Viv, SB et al

    If everything is under control, why haven't G & K been charged with a crime? I find it difficult to believe that the police haven't got enough evidence. If they are waiting for a confession, they will wait forever.

    Why did British political figures and civil servants become so embroiled in a police matter at such an early stage? In all likelihood, they have perverted the course of justice.


  133. I don't get it. Why on earth would the McCanns want this association in the press? The Sun has it now. The sub-headline is "The cops who found kidnap scam schoolgirl Shannon Matthews are to join the search for missing Madeleine McCann."

    I wouldn't expect that the good doctors McCann would wish for their names to appear in the same headline as the words "kidnap scam."


  134. The Mcs want to see all the PJ police files not to review the case but to be aware of all the witness evidence against them. They know they are not out of the woods and the case can blow wide open soon. Their friends like to visit witnesses and have a quiet chat with them don't they (offering double glazing perhaps?)

  135. To poster 134, who better than to exonorate the good doctors than the police who were tipped off by a neigbour about Shannon (I'm reluctant to say thet it was a clever piece of investigative work, it is for the tabloids to trick the 'ignorant masses' with such a description of a police force, not me!).

    The masses will beleive it when the 'Shannon cops' tell us the McCanns are innocent and it was a scapegoat they 'dig up'!

    In the end, there is nothing the McCanns can ever do to change the fact that they did not sufficiently care for their three children - Kate McCann admitted they only listened at the door - even their friends drew the line at claiming they had actually checked the kids by visual means - only Gerry tells us he actually saw Madeleine - and Kate cancelled that out by admitting she thought the door had been moved since 'they had left it'.

    In short, they told lies that prevented the investigation from progressing - even if the police were wrong to suspect them and focus on them (I hasten to add I dont think the police made a mistake by doing that!) they only did that because the McCann's and their friends created suspicion by lying.

    It is an appalling thing to do, to pervert the investigation into their missing child, delaying police investigations, to defend themselves - effectively putting their own personal condition ahead of that of a little three year old girl!

    I wish they had a conscience - that would at least mean they were suffering!

  136. Remember, Kate McCann admitted the intention was not to visually check the children...she also gave it away that no one could have 'moved the door' since Gerry and her had left the apartment.

    So Gerry's 'proud Father' story is a lie - a fabricated peice of nonsense -the question is, why make such an elaborate lie?

    A simple lie would have reduced the risk of their being charged with neglect. His elaborate scenario is risky - but is something liars cannot resist.

    The question is, did he lie to confirm the check and thus strengthen his defence against neglect charges, or did he do it because there was something more sinister afoot?

    Gerry and abductor both visible in Tanners story. Wilkins and Gerry didnt see her or abductor. So now Gerry does not elaborate to confirm the lie. Is this a double bluff? Is this inconsistancy forced upon him by wilkins having turned up at just the wrong time?

    What was he really doing - why was there a 'cadaver dog alert' in the flower bed? Did Tanner see Gerry later, after Wilkins had proceeded on his way - did she not realise at that time that Gerry was getting rid of the body?

    Lots ogf questions, but it does not take Sherlock Holmes to work out possible answers!

  137. 133 We do not actually know what is on the file from Rebelo's investigation, what is on CEOP and LPs files, what offences Team McCann have committed or what evidence they currently have to prove those offences. But it is clearly going to be something worse than perverting the course of justice although that may be an appropriate charge for some of those who have assisted Gerry in various ways, it will be one of the less serious charges Gerry faces, I would imagine, although being in a major conspiracy with others to dispose of his own little girl is terribly serious. The substantive offences are worse than that. This is an international and complex investigation and many very serious cases can take years. Knowing who the suspect is does not give the police a magic wand to just prosecute them. I think there are a lot of suspects and there may well have to be co-ordination with other jurisdictions.
    We know the Spanish are holding Jiminez for example. UK are currently holding Halligen but he is wanted by the US. A lot of witnesses are Portuguese and many aspects were investigated by Portuguese officers. This case is just mega complex!

    We do know there is currently an appeal for further information from CEOP who obviously believe Maddie may still be alive. The wording of that appeal is very informative in suggesting they want to appeal to someone like Kate or Jane.

    We also know that Gerry appeared before them in January and they refuse to comment about it and so does Gerry. That is a typical tactic of British law enforcement in a serious case.

  138. 134 Gerry's favourite rag The Sun goes on to totally contradict the assertion W Yorks are going to look for Maddie by stating the Home Office are considering whether to order a new investigation. All within the space of a few short paragraphs!

    What is important to Gerry is that the PJs and LP believe they are guilty and will not investigate a stranger abduction any further, so he is wanting to spin the Home Office are giving those two the heave ho and appointing someone else. He wants to discredit them. He never can quite give up, but he is utterly hammered! It is a "high risk strategy" to associate their name with Matthews but he is all out of ideas! He just gets more and more desperate to strike back, remember he has been planning this for over a year and he must be gutted that he cannot just order the PJs to start being his lackeys again investigating his ridiculous fantasies!

    We know from the actual quote from the Home Office in the Daily Telegraph they are NOT considering appointing a different investigation team, they are very happy with the PJs and LP. That is the truth! The Sun are not actually quoting the Home Office, are they, they are giving us some McGerryMuck.

  139. Anon 120 - I think you have an interesting point about the baby monitors - yes, wouldn`t any parents on a holiday like this automatically take the baby monitors with them, even if it was just to use within the actual apartment from sitting room or balcony to kids room.

    Is it perhaps because all the kids were in one place at night i.e. in the Payne`s apartment? And did Diane Webster go on the holiday to be the baby-sitter and stay in most nights - that would explain why the Paynes had the baby monitor with them on that night because Diane was out dining herself.

    It would also explain why the nursery girl said the twins were not in the flat to begin with, but the twins had been placed back in the flat by the time the police arrived.

    It is said Madeleine didn`t sleep well - was she a disruptive influence on the other babes, so was separated from them on the 2nd May, the night she was crying incessantly for her Dad?

    Having all the kids in one place at night would free the other apartments up for other activities.


  140. I have always wondered if Kate Mc Scam had post natal depresion this does not always occur straight after childbirth it can come on much later and thats why the PJ couldnt get access to her medical records, being in that state of mind who knows what she could do????

  141. Post 138

    The CEOP have put out an appeal for further information and Viv suggests that it is to someone like KM and Tanner.....then why not just question them like real Police do instead of pussyfooting about?

    If the likes of the CEOP were going to do anything they would have done it by now. All I can see is cozying up the McCanns. It clearly believes every word the McCanns have said re an abduction. This alleged new review is designed to negate the findings of real cops like the PJ. It was a tip off, as we all know, that the Matthews girl was found, like how most crimes are solved, not great detective work. The cops should stick to pursuing motorists for out of date car tax discs and traffic fines that is what they do best.

  142. The Paynes have 2 children and according to DP the youngest slept in parent's bedroom. The elder of the two had own bedroom, perhaps to leave room for other children in the group (the twins)? to stay while the parents were out boozing. The Paynes had a Baby Monitor!

    I think Madeleine was all alone in her apartment every night!!!

    Something I have read on another site is that Mrs Fenn only heard one child crying and calling 'Daddy Daddy'. Surely, if the twins were in the same room as Maddie, would not they have cried also?

    Also, KM said during an interview that Maddie supposedly said 'Where were you last night when me and Sean were crying? KM said on Camera "When was this Madeleine"', but added that Madeleine 'dropped it and moved on'. KM said she thought "was this when they were getting a bath".



  143. oh Louise, no! "other activities" with Gerry or Payne, OMG, that is enough to turn you halibut!

    142 The alternative is CEOP believe they are innocent and I find that utterly far fetched! There is just a lot more to this than we are allowed to know.

  144. Actually Louise you have defeated your own argument because you say that the Shannon case was solved by a tipoff but slate CEOP for asking for a tipoff!

    What do you expect them to say, we strongly believe the TAPAS group abused Madeleine and then got rid of her and would like you to start telling us the truth and come on great British public grass them up. That is not real life is it?

    And what makes you think they are not regularly spoken to? How do you know what the police do or do not do?

  145. #143, you made me recall something from Dianne Webster's rogatory interview that I've always felt weird: that lady said she slept in the sofa-bed in the living-room, not because there was no other place available, but out of her own choice! She said that their(Paynes)apartment was the largest of the group and that there were TWO beds in the room were the elder child slept, but yet, she DID NOT want to sleep there!?

    WHY??? Which "loving" grandmother would object to sharing her grandaughter's room?!

    "Reply: ”We were the only ones on the first floor, we had the, we had a bigger apartment than the others, err which is what Dave, Dave had originally err asked for anyway because he wanted to have err a separate bedroom I think for the girls, although they were in cots, and err I, I just slept on the err there was a folding bed in the liv, the sort of living room area, and that’s where I slept, although there were two beds in one of the bedrooms, that’s also where Lily was sleeping in her cot so I didn’t err didn’t want to sleep in the same room as her.”


  146. With the unusual sleeping arrangements in the Paynes' apartment, perhaps the 'other activities'referred to above are not too far from the truth!

  147. Hello Viv - lol at `other activities with G & D` !

    I think there might be two Louises - I have never commented on the Matthews case at all. I think the other Louise uses a lower case `l`.


  148. I think it is perfectly normal she would not want to sleep in the same room as her little granddaughter if there was an alternative. What about turning the light on to get undressed, apply cream, read a book whatever, she could do none of that for fear of waking the little one. She maybe even like me wants to get up in the middle of the night and have a cup of tea! She would be fearful of even going to the toilet for fear of waking her.

  149. According to the Paynes ,they had a baby monitor ,I have googled them and the one with the greatest distance was one which covered 330 m ....which is 360 yds ,surely if my memory serves me right ,the tapas was further away than this ,hence the monitor was next to useless

  150. Sorry Louise I meant 142, not you!

    Now excuse me whilst I just pop off to be sick at the thought of that revolting menage e trois!


  151. Apparently nothing to do with Madeleine case, but lets watch close the developments in the investigation of this case. If the suspicion of the police came true, another bullet for the Mccann's Fairy Tale. An abduction planed in UK and having the family behind it. UK must be prepared for more cases of a fake abduction- Madeleine and the easy Fund made under her tragedy, became an Inspiration.

    And on that case the phone calls where traced up and reveal important information to the police. Why in the Maddie case, the Home Office refuse to give access to such information? TWO FACES ON THE SAME COUNTRY. MADDIE STORY NEED A HUGE EXPLANATION. Mccann's nightmare just begun.

    'Police believe father of kidnapped Pakistani boy knows more.
    Ransom demand made in sterling a bit suspicious, investigators say'

    By Simon Parry and Massoud Ansari, Daily Mail Published: 00:00 March 15, 2010- In Gulf News

    'Kidnappers abducted Sahil from a house in central Pakistan on Thursday and demanded a huge ransom for his return. Police in Pakistan say they still have new questions about the evidence given to them by the father of kidnapped five-year-old Sahil Saeed before he left the country to return to Britain.

    Detectives in his family's home city of Jhelum say they want to speak again to Raja Naqqash Saeed over key elements of the testimony he has given them.

    A senior police source said investigators are troubled by the claim that the £100,000 ransom demand for Sahil was made in sterling when previous kidnappers of British citizens have demanded Pakistani rupees.

    Police, who believe someone "very close" to the family may be involved in the plot, also want to ask Raja more about the second of two calls he says he received from the kidnappers which they believe may have been made from Britain.

    Not adding up

    "Some of the things the father has told us just don't seem to add up and we would like to speak to him about them in more detail. We are not happy that he has left the country in this way," the source said.

    A Mail on Sunday investigation has meanwhile discovered that Raja, 28, and Sahil's 31-year-old mother Akila lived apart for more than a year before his abduction and only reunited in Britain weeks before the kidnapping.

    Family members said their relationship had deteriorated to the extent that Akila, who was raised in Britain, informed the Home Office they were estranged, dashing Raja's hopes of getting a British passport.

    Just five days after Sahil's abduction in Jhelum, Raja stunned relatives in Pakistan by leaving his family's home after telling his mother he was going to the local police station to check on the investigation.

    Instead, he drove to the capital Islamabad where he caught a flight to Manchester on Tuesday. He is understood to have been met by plain-clothes officers.

    Greater Manchester Police have said that Saeed is not being treated as a suspect. They have also stressed that he is co-operating fully with them.

    Raja's uncle Raja Bisharat told us: "We weren't worried when he said he was going to the police station because officers had been questioning him on a regular basis since the kidnap and we thought it was just another appointment."

    "He took his car, drove away and never returned. The next morning, his car was returned to us by the police and he had gone to Britain." (CONT)

  152. (CONT)

    Raja booked his plane ticket a day after a harrowing one-to-one meeting with Pakistan's interior minister Rehman Malek, who made it clear to reporters afterwards that he believed someone "very close to the family" was involved in the kidnap.

    Raja's departure from Pakistan was the latest twist in a kidnapping that took place against the background of feuding parents torn apart by cultural differences, money issues and jobless Raja's failure to get a British passport.

    Sahil was about to return to Britain with his father 10 days ago after a three-week stay at his grandmother's home in Jhelum when four gunmen burst into the family compound, robbed the family and fled with Sahil.

    Father's account

    Raja says he was phoned with a ransom demand for £100,000 after the kidnapping and received a further call on his mobile phone from the kidnappers using a Spanish number two days later telling him to await further instructions.

    The drama unfolded after Raja and Akila had been separated for more than a year. Raja returned to Pakistan while Akila stayed in Oldham with their three children. They reunited briefly but fell out within weeks. Raja then took his son to his grandmother's house in February.

    Almost eight years after their May 2002 wedding, Raja still has a Pakistani passport and has indefinite stay status in Britain but not citizenship because of his lengthy trip to Pakistan and Akila's contact with the Home Office, relatives said. Normally, a Pakistani who married a British passport holder can expect to have a British passport within five years.'

  153. I am sure I've read somewhere that it was the men that bathed the children whilst on holiday. I may be wrong though.

  154. Viv, #150, yes, you make some good points there, but the living-room is not the most private part of any apartment, is it? What about the other adults going to the toillet, turning on lights, or going to the kitchen to have a drink of water, or make some tea? Unless she was a very heavy sleeper she wouldn't have much of a good night's sleep. I think that she did all her undressing, taking make-up off, etc., in the bathroom, she would not do it in the middle of the living room, would she? Not with the possibility of her son-in-law coming into it at any given moment, no matter how intimate or close they are, it would have been awkward. Or maybe it's just me, I'm too modest. In my first years of marriage I lived in an apartment which had an "open space" kind of living/dining room, no door of it's own, the doors from the bedroom and bathroom and kitchen opened up directly into the said living room, and when my in-laws visited for Christmas they stayed in the bedroom and my husband and I slept on the sofa-bed. I absolutely hated it, I felt so exposed everytime my father-in-law crossed the living to go to the toillet( and he did go often, lol), not to mention waking up everytime he went! It was not a comfortable nor desirable situation, but I had no choice as my husband would not have his parents sleeping in a couch! It was absolute heaven when we moved house and got a spare bedroom for the visits, that's why I felt D. Webster's choice of the folding-bed in the living-room over a good solid bed in her granddaughter's room.

  155. yes anon 105 very understandable but did he say that before or after the birth of the internet

  156. #153, you must be thinking of the Gaspars statements about what took place in a previous holiday in Mayorca. It's Dr. Gaspar who mentioned that. Not sure if that( children bathed by the men) was the case in Portugal, but, if one thinks about what Kate said about the crying incident( Madeleine and Sean crying the night before) it could very well be so. Kate wondered what was Madeleine talking about, "was this when they were in the bath?". Well, if she did not know if her children cried while in the bath it can only mean she was not the one bathing them! Who was doing it then?...Remember, Gerry was supposedly at the tennis courts by that time...

  157. poster 137 ,I have never believed Tanners fairy tale ,IF she did walk up the same street as TWO people ,IF they didnt see her ,they must have at least have heard her and looked who was there ,this was a quite,deserted street ,not the lay-by of the m25 ,Utter rubbish

  158. #120,
    I remember reading about the Paynes monitor being the only one working properly, having a longer range or something of the kind. The others either had none or they did not work. That's what I recall, but am not 100% sure, maybe it was something I read in some forum or newspaper and it might not be correct.

  159. 152 Thanks for that and I do fear you are right, other hard up families with little love or concern are seeing that the McCanns have netted millions and it is becoming another hideous scourge in UK.

    Maybe the press should start acting just a little more responsibly and not allowing the McCanns to keep putting their bulletins in, it is disgusting. They know full well the McCanns are not innocent in this matter and are treating them differently to other criminal suspects purely due to money considerations. The McCanns crime is so heinous and far reaching it is difficult really to even imagine its effects in total. Let us hope that before too much longer they will be caught up with and the message will go out loud and clear, cashing in on your child does not pay!

  160. Anon 149 - I`m sure the Tapas wasn`t that far away. With a monitor we`d be talking about the distance `as the crow flies` which I think was 60 yards - there have been so many different quotes on this, its a job to know which is correct.


  161. #124, faz-me pensar num paralelo:
    - imagine uns pais com uma filha a quem é diagnosticada uma doença grave, potencialmente fatal e que tem uma esperança de cura no estrangeiro. Organiza-se um fundo de beneficiência, angaria-se o dinheiro necessário para a viagem e tratamento, e, uma vez na posse desses fundos, o que fazem os pais? Em vez de usarem o dinheiro do fundo para tratarem a filha, usam-no para ajudar a pagar a hipoteca da casa, contratar um porta-voz, dar umas "ajudas de custo" aos familiares e...contratar advogados "topo de gama" para processarem os médicos e o sistema de saúde português por não terem meios para tratar a filha cá!
    Alguém "engoliria" uma história destas?! Não creio...mas muitos são os que "comem" a mixórdia dos Mccann e ainda proclamam: - "DELICIOUS!"

  162. hello viv..

    I am always left bewildered by your posts, sometimes i agree, mostly i don't.
    Can i ask you 3 questions....uncomplexed ie yes/no.....or don't know.

    Do you believe Madeleine is dead?
    Do you believe Gerry and Kate know she is dead and arranged the cover up with the help of others?
    Do you beleive the British Police and Ceop believe Madeleine is dead and Kate and Gerry are involved?

    your posts strike me as someone who can see the injustice's in this whole case. Yet you seem to always defend the establishment/institutions ....which i can't help but see have become corrupt beyond words. I get no pleasure from saying this as an englishman but the truth is the truth.


  163. Hi 126 (77&97) ... No worries - I couldn't agree more - we can but hope!

  164. 'viv'...... Thanks for those few kind words, I am delighted that someone actually agrees with me for once.

    I think there is a frequent tendency for people to be carried away by the moment, especially in the absence of any notable developments in the case. They therefore zone in on trivia or theories that have little or no relevance and thus allow themselves to be swept along with unsubstantiated flimsy ideas that result in a circumlocution of unprofitable input.

    For this reason alone I have always tried to restrict my opinions to known fact, plausible links and authoritative sources - at least as far as my not so good memory will allow. The situation can be likened to a court of law or an industrial tribunal whereby defence representatives twist and turn every detail, throw in a bucket load of sea bass, and lead those who are to judge a case totally bemused by all the irrelevant mumbo-jumbo and thus they forget the original facts of the indictment. This is something we must never be allowed to do!

    For all those who doubt 'vivs' loyalty, I think we can safely assume that he/she is very much 'on-side' with seeking justice for Madeleine Mccann - although I admit sometimes I do not understand the point he/she is making nor do I necessarily agree with absolutely everything he/she has to say!

    My opinion of course.

  165. SB 165.

    Thanks for defining the framework within which we are allowed to operate.

    Viv, CEOP make it clear that they are NOT suggesting that either Kate or Gerry are responsible - go to their site, listen carefully to the 'plea' - it mentions the parents agony being alleviated. Are you suggesting that they are appealing to the McCann's themselves to lift their own agony by confessing?

    I do not trust the CEOP, they seem to be seeking to 'make themselves important' and seem to be aiming for a monopoly - very dangerous indeed. If they are as skilled and expert as they seem to think they are, as you seem to think they are, why are they sustaining a position which puts many children at risk, as parents see the mcCann's child care methods being applauded by TV 'personalities' and multi millionaires?

  166. 158 I am not convinced Tanner's story is a fairy tale. To expose oneself without neccessity as she has is either very brave (absolutely heroic if to support 'friends') very stupid or a mistake.

    I think it was a mistake. She spoke too loudly and too soon, before Gerry had a chance to straighten the story with her. By this I mean I suspect she saw Gerry, didnt know it was Gerry and was later told it was Gerry - hence the change in direction and her claim that she saw Gerry AND the abductor at the same time (hence clearing Gerry from being the person she saw).

    Gerry has never said that she couldnt have seen the abductor at the time she said she did, even though he has said he didnt see her or the abductor. On his blog, just after the Panorama documentary, he did alter the time she had said she saw the abductor and made it the same time as he claims he looked down proudly at Madeleine.

    There are much cleverer people than me out there and if I can see these discrepancies and suspicious 'amendments' then I am confident that in the authorities there are people who also realise that the McCann's have lied about their checking regime and realised, of course, that they are claiming only a listening service - except for Gerry McCann's part of the tale.

  167. 163 I entirely agree with the Portuguese Prosecutor Mr Menezes when he says that there is a 50 : 50 chance of Madeleine being dead or alive and that they could have been charged with kidnapping /trafficking and I think that is what British authorities believe too. I think it is wrong to insist that a child is dead without any clear evidence to back that not just from a legal point of view but from a moral one. I find the prospect of Madeleine being found ill and abused anyway and having hundreds if not thousands of people writing about her death on the internet a pretty horrifying thing to contemplate, what does it achieve?

    I do not think it is a question of siding with the establishment, it is a question of being able to accept reality and understand that only the establishment can actually bring justice for Madeleine. Attacking it, the courts, the police is entirely counter-productive. Maybe one day you or a member of our family will need them. Or would you prefer some internet bloggers? Think about that next time you go to dial 999.

  168. Hi 165 and thanks for your interesting post and kind words, it certainly is refreshing that at least one person sees this case in a similar way to me but perhaps you also have a legal background. That will make us look at evidence in a critical way as a court would which other members of the public may find difficult to understand.

    I know that whenever you are in a court or tribunal it is usually easy to see the one who has the strongest case, it is succinct. Three is no need to try and bury the facts, the simple facts speak for themselves. On a simple level this is what we may say about Kate and Gerry McCann, their behaviour was out of the normal range in so many respects. As soon as they came back from Portugal they engaged Media Relations Experts and a lawyer, Angus McBride, who specialises in managing the reputations of those being investigated for very serious offences, if they can afford it. Of course Kate and Gerry have used their not inconsiderable intellect to amass other peoples' money to pay for all of this. This hardly helps in their overall aim!

    They immediately set about putting false versions of events into the press for the public to absorb and believe. We can contrast that with the actual files and see that again they sought to deceive us. People are understandably very angry and when people see less than immediate action being taken about such obvious injustice, it is understandable many will consider there is some sort of conspiracy going on, rather than the vagaries and complexities of criminal and international law that Kate and Gerry have so cleverly sought to engage to defend themselves.

    But in many respects I cannot restrict myself to just sticking to the facts or a strict legal analysis. I am a passionate and caring person also and I am very, very angry with Kate and Gerry and so in my posts people will see proper analysis, and they will also see just pure emotion. That may confuse, I know!

  169. Your info about the Pakistani case is hopelessly out of date, anon. The father was checked out by cops here and they decided he was genuine. The money was raised by the women of the family selling their jewellry and an appeal to Asian businesses in Oldham.

  170. It is known that Payne left the bar at 6.15pm(video) and he went to see Gerry who was playing tennis.
    There is a version of the story that Gerry asked him to go to 5a and ask if Kate and the children wanted to come to see him playing( a boring suggestion for 3 children under 4 years old).He came back telling the children were in pyjamas and very tired.
    And there is the Amaral's documentary version, where Payne comes to the tennis field, asks for Kate, he goes to 5a and Kate was bathing the children.
    Till now there has been no version that the 3 children were being bathed wearing their pyjamas.

    Gerry involved 4 Tapas, manipulating them to "recognise" Murat: Rachel, Fiona and Russel.
    Could it be that he manipulated Payne to say he went to 5a and saw the 3 angels in pyjamas, or saw them being bathed, with or without their pyjamas on?
    In this case it could be that Payne is somehow known by the british police, Gerry knew it and put him in difficulties on purpose?

    Except for Mrs. Webster, the rest of Tapas 7 all got in trouble by false statements.All manipulated by Gerry.
    If Tapas 4 made false statements, why shouldn't Payne?
    And after all Madeleine could have died short after 5.30pm and not after 6.30pm, and Gerry was at home at that moment?
    And was it Gerry's idea to advise Payne not to leave the table, to tell about the monitor, on purpose, in order to call the attention of the police to him as a suspect?
    Uptill now Payne did not protest against any suggestion about him in blogs, nor against de Gaspars.
    Probably because he is already known by the british police.
    Even if he is innocent in Madeleine's case, he is lost anyway because he is super riff raff, with a bad name.
    In this case, it is not a case that the McCanns protect their best friend Payne but the other way around.
    They must know things about Payne(photos?videos?) and he has no choice.
    Besides, the McCanns never did anything for others.
    They just use them.
    This is my opinion!

  171. Continuing my theory above,

    Inconsistencies: Gerry said Payne stayed 30 minutes in 5a, Kate said 30 seconds.
    Why did they not agree among themselves about the amount of minutes?
    Very important in every crime.
    If Payne is gerry's best friend, why didn't gerry protect him?
    I start to suspect gerry somehow wanted to incriminate his best friend, in order to get rid of his own guilt.
    Fiona and Kate are still friends but we never heard of Payne anymore.
    Is he angry with gerry?

  172. @ Viv

    What do you expect them to say, we strongly believe the TAPAS group abused Madeleine and then got rid of her and would like you to start telling us the truth and come on great British public grass them up. That is not real life is it?"

    No Viv it isnt. I believe in your belief in the police, in the process of law and I believe you know the evidence makes the McCanns guilty; I also believe that you believe Gerald more guilty than Kate none of that I doubt.

    I still doubt the other things you are saying Im with the other ordinary members of the public here- though I dont doubt the McCanns are behind the awful press and not the government nor any others like the masons- just what is it we are waiting for? Because if there wasnt enough proof to take to court of Madeleines death in the apartment three years ago I dont see how there can be now. Without that proof the other charges wont stick including fraud.

    As for making a video supporting the thesis of abduction supposedly cleverly worded to encourage the tapas crew or families to come forward- thats not real life is it? Just who are the CEOP expecting to come forward after three years? As uncomfortable as the McCanns found the whole process they havent made any confessions yet have they? Instead theyre at the heart of Missing Persons fun run and of all things a programme on Faith which as an added insult was on Mothering Sunday. On the basis of your posts the visit to His Holy Father was constructive in the investigation.

    Youre very clever and know about the law of that Ive no doubt so would you give me a direct answer to a question that Id like to ask on behalf of someone else.

    In what year do you see there being an arrest and on what grounds?

  173. Anon @ 135. YOU TOUCH THE POINT.... They want the Pj files to control, pervert and persecute inconvenient witnesses, behind public eyes, using people like Aragao and peanuts from the Fund. They know what is at Leicester police hands, no matter if some material still under judicial secrecy.... WHO DELIVERED FLOWERS AT MCCANN'S DOORS, ALSO DELIVER HOT INFORMATION FOR THEM TO BE CAREFUL AND AVOID ANY TROUBLE. The flowers speak volumes.
    But, Mccann's they know, PJ were far away from a stupid force. The inspectors were largely known by their patience and their success to hunt rats, they don't let Leicester police to get inside hot information, specially because they have doubts about the impartiality of Leicester police. AND THE MCCANN'S KNOW.... HOT INFORMATION MUST BE ABOUT THEM, since DOGS DON'T LIE AND STILL WORKING FOR THE BRITISH POLICE AND HELPING WITH GREAT SUCESS EVERY CASE THEY HAVE BEEN TAKE IN. THE DOGS WERE THE MOST HATED ANIMALS IN MCCANN'S LIFE. NO WAY TO OFFER A DOG TO THE TWINS, Instead they will prefer RATS.

  174. @SB
    "I think there is a frequent tendency for people to be carried away by the moment, especially in the absence of any notable developments in the case. They therefore zone in on trivia or theories that have little or no relevance and thus allow themselves to be swept along with unsubstantiated flimsy ideas that result in a circumlocution of unprofitable input."

    Personally there's a great deal in this case I find unprofitable the CEOP appeals are the first thing that spring to mind the second Vivs remarks like "Madeleine has the same cute little nose as her mother" her/his insistence that Gerry is responsible - on what grounds? Oops forgot police secrecy- monitoring.

    Well lets be speculative shall we last time Viv told us there was going to be a breakthrough that both police forces were working in harmony there was no reconstruction and if I understand correctly there was not unlimited access to the McCanns who were allowed to vet the questions the PJ put to them.

    Is that normal? Posters keep assuring us it is- does that mean that up and down the country right now at this minute suspects are seeing if they approve of the questions put to them? What then a cup of tea and reading any of their co-acaccused statements before finally answering the pre approved questions?

    Sorry to be a drag but I believe there is some "jollying along" going on- until what? After the election? And the McCanns are regularly grilled by the police? Really? Its only now can they come up with a half believable story between them. So in their constant questioning and monitoring of the McCanns what have the CEOP and LP learnt- the soap powder Kate uses? Because as try as I might I cant see them discussing what they did with Madeleine over the preparations for tea. Nor do I believe they'd withstand a severe questioning- a grilling the way others are relentlessly grilled.

    I have every faith in the police too- when theyre allowed to do there jobs- Viv brought up Rebelo- well I understood he believed there was enough to bring a prosecution, failing that to keep on investigating neither of those conclusions were acted on- the PJ case is shelved I believe "awaiting new evidence". No I dont believe Madeleine was let down by the PJ anymore than I believe that the McCanns are innocent.

    I find your snotty remarks about people theorising in the absence of any sense there is going to be justice highly insulting.

    Im not expecting the McCanns to face justice I would appreciate it though if they werent paraded out as examples and if certain people stopped **ss*** on my head and telling me its raining.

  175. Who is Viv? Parece alguem de Leicester que sabe algumas coisas nao difundidas propriamente por jornais ou pela Net.

  176. The UK police have a clear track record in this case of delaying and obfuscation. The delay of passing on the Gaspars evidence; the denying the existance of bank and credit card accounts to the PJ; the minimal A4 page of info on the McCanns; the police/CEOP handbooks in the McCanns possession; the cosy rogatory interviews. We know the UK detectives agreed with the PJ conclusions, there was no abduction, but their hands were tied, by whom, the use of Clarence M and pulling of suspicious embassy officials; and Brown's interference points to government.

    This has been the reality of this case. This is not some stupid misguided notion of a few ignorant posters who don't have legal knowledge. So why has all this changed and somehow the police are now free to do a good proper job. The fact is that there is simply no indication that anything has changed and that's why people are suspicious of a continuing whitewash. The idiotic nonsense from CEOP doesn't help either, the '14 year old' image of Madeleine and the partiality, inviting McCann to speak and their complicity in the idea of an abduction. Nothing has changed and posters are right to be at the very least suspicious of the UK police involvement.

  177. The online discussion of this case has been plagued by water-muddying debate manipulators from the start. Confusing and contradictory statements, shifting positions, claims of inside info - it's almost as if they've been inspired by Team McCann...

    Whatever their agenda - at best these people are attention seekers - it seems sensible not to respond to their distractions.

    Don't engage, ignore!

  178. Viv, Don't forgot to include on the 50:50 of Prosecutor Magalhaes e Menezes the evidences gathered after the dogs intervention- 15 alleles of 19, matching Madeleine ADN in the flat. Cadaverine in the flat, the Renault Scenic, Kate clothes, a child T-shirt and the Cuddle Cat. Too Much PIECES SHARED BY MADELEINE AND HER PARENTS RELATED WITH A WEIRD SITUATION ( DEAD).
    Without the body or a confession, without the support of British authorities to carry on some important investigation in UK, The Prosecutor end his statement with a clever answer which did not clear the Mccann's.... Per contrary, he says that important steps need to be investigated and off-course with that 50:50 and having one of the 50s almost full of evidences(dead) and the other 50 ( alive- abduction) completely empty, NO WAY TO REOPEN THE CASE AND INVESTIGATE AN ABDUCTION. THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY.
    HE KNOW MADELEINE IS DEAD, HE KNOW WHO WERE THE RESPONSIBLES, BUT THERE IS NO ENNOUGH EVIDENCES TO BRING THE CASE TO COURT AND ACHIEVE JUSTICE. That did not means the case cannot be solved, that did not means the police were incompetent and don't achieve important results in the investigation. THAT MEANS ONLY-- When the case reach a hot and crucial point to be solved, and crucial steps must be done, somebody with power at the top of the governments realised that the evidences will incriminate the parents, then the case must be shelved before further problems. I have no doubts that THE PROSECUTORS AGREE TO SHELVE THE CASE ONLY BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT FROM UK WILL BE NO SUPPORT TO PASS TO PORTUGUESE POLICE VITAL INFORMATION. TO SOLVE A COMPLICATE CASE IN A CLEAR AND PROPERLY WAY, THE POLICE NEED TO LOOK AT THE LIFE, THE PASS, THEIR LAST MOVEMENTS IN UK, AT EVERY MOMENT OF THE MCCANN'S LIFE, THEIR FRIENDS, PERHAPS SOME RELATIVES, ETC.
    Why are the mccann's protected at UK? This is the Question. Was it because of the habits of the group ( Swing, Paedophilia)? was it because they know Madeleine died under very negligent circumstances and this is not acceptable for a child inserted in a doctors family? was it because the government ad to publicly assume being foolish by a pair of parents by letting them set a Fund without clear objectives? etc, etc.

  179. Regarding the Boy in Pakistan. Pakistani police still insisting that the case was planed in UK and some boy relatives were involved. The Ransom was to high to be a result of money collected from family jewellery's or to be achieved by a donation in so quite and quickly way. Too much inconsistencies in the story.

  180. @ Viv please can you after youve explained why you expect an arrest and when and on what grounds answer a question I have.

    If theres no press coverage because its an investigation why is there not a D Notice on the case which would prevent the McCanns manipulating the investigation through the press? A complete blanket seems more appropriate for a couple of criminals who have had plenty of opportunity to confess.Exactly how is their continued praise in the media helpful to anyone but themselves?

    As for this little pearl of advice at 168
    "one day you or a member of our family will need them. Or would you prefer some internet bloggers? Think about that next time you go to dial 999."

    What's that a veiled threat? Are our prospects of justice, compassion and policing based on what views we express? As far as Im able to judge people expressed their concerns over justice in other mediums before the internet- so which is it you want to get rid of free speech, the free internet or free thought or free independent police? If youre asking based on what Ive learnt through this case - internet bloggers please.

    As for this

    "163 I entirely agree with the Portuguese Prosecutor Mr Menezes when he says that there is a 50 : 50 chance of Madeleine being dead or alive and that they could have been charged with kidnapping /trafficking and I think that is what British authorities believe too. I think it is wrong to insist that a child is dead without any clear evidence to back that not just from a legal point of view but from a moral one. I find the prospect of Madeleine being found ill and abused anyway and having hundreds if not thousands of people writing about her death on the internet a pretty horrifying thing to contemplate, what does it achieve? "

    Doh! The PJ believe she's dead but cant prove it.Try being 50 percent dead- its fluff a purile arguement nobody is buying. As for her being ill. abused and recovered IF she was up to reading If she had been taught why would she be horrified at her death being discussed? Dont you think from the moment she had been taken (very dead from the apartment woof! woof!) in the boot of a hire car she would be afraid for her life? If Madeleine were alive she'd be old enough to contemplate her death by now.At her present age after three years of awful abuse she would be unlikely to be able to face popping out to buy the Sun or having a gander at the internet to see what people have written about her. Frankly I dont care if some find such things upsetting they should be discussed and openly too no matter how uncomfortable if we are to address the problem- thats what it acheives- people thinking; people being aware; people caring about Madeleine and other children within society.

  181. Anon 167


    I think Jane Tanner made a 'mistake' and Gerry is using her.
    They all are guilty of neglect, so I think JT changed her story to save her own skin (and O'Brien's). Gerry let her change the story to have an alibi. In a video about the McCann's 'reconstruction' it's obvious Gerry decides where JT was walking that night, he doesn't treat her nicely. JT starts crying as telling she could have stopped the 'abductor' and imo it is sincerely, in contrast with Kate and Gerry, never seen sincere sorrow. So I believe Jane story is a fairy-tale, but it wasn't a fairy-tale in the first instance.

  182. poster 167
    As far as I have seen on the "reconstruction" this was a narrow,quite street ,I live on a big wide road ,but if at night i was stood talking to someone on my side of the road ,and someone passed on the other side i would know ,if you dont fully see them coming towards you ,you would see them in the corner of your eye and look round ,I find it utter rot that neither Jez or Gerry saw her

  183. Viv @ 138, I am 133

    I feel sure that G & K have perverted the course of justice, I meant that individuals sent by our government have enabled it to happen by their overwhelming, biased support and protection. Why was there no objectivity? Also, I agree, of course, the case is mega complex NOW. But it didn't have to be. The ordinary Portuguese police worked well and brought PJ in straightaway. They did their jobs efficiently and amazingly were not put off by the smokescreen and the practical interference of the press. In fact, the pressure must have been awful, but they did not waiver from their professionalism. Rebelo was certain what had gone before was correct and wanted G & K to be charged. Why did the public prosecutor act as he did and comply to get G & K out of Portugal?

    We may not know everything that is in the police files, but we know enough to know that this is way out of order. We have just had an example of international police cooperation with the Sahil case. Police working together is normal if there are no political reasons for them to do otherwise.

    The case was lost when G & K boarded their plane home. It is going to be so much harder to see justice now and I may not see it in my lifetime.

    On top of all this, we have the added problem of deciding which party to vote for in May.......


  184. To 'Viv', post 169.

    You said...'Of course Kate and Gerry have used their not inconsiderable intellect'

    You seem to know these people, or how else can you make such a statement? I have seen no direct evidence that Kate or Gerry have a 'considerable intellect'. They both seem rather stupid, maybe they can pass exams (as you will no doubt mention their qualifications), but this does NOT equate to intellect. I know plenty of people with 'serious status' who are frankly pretty stupid - lacking in 'common sense' - but capable of incredible feats of memory (and they have the magic ingrediant, money!

    The point is, there are many people involved who could be running the show and there are certainly influentual people involved and clever people involved - but how much intellect and cleverness can be attributed to the parents?

    They have clearly failed to influence those who blog and those who comment on the internet - and their parenting 'intellect' is woefully inadequate.

    Their story is full of obvious flaws - in fact it could be argued that rather than them being clever, the authorities and the media are incredibly stupid (e.g. Fiona Phillips!!).

    There is something about your posts which is unnerving and strangely familiar to me - like someone who used to post on Anorak. I think it is your considerable intellect we need to be cautious of!

  185. The thing I don't agree with Viv is that Gerry is the one who dunnit. I don't think he did.

  186. As poster 71, I have worked in Crown, Magistrates, Juvenile and Family Courts, in a Youth Custody Centre, 2 prisons and a bail hostel.One of my best friends is in the police force at high rank- so I think I know a little about how the system works and I'm not anti-police. I am looking at matters fom a) ongoing risk to 2 children, as I believe the dogs indicated a death in the apartment. b)the dysfunctional way in whih our supposedly democratic system is operating. If the government, LP and CEOP are not prepared to act now on existing knowledge, it leads me to believe in conspiracy rather than cock-up. I will continue to apply pressure where I can. I also think there is obstruction at higher levels in Portugal too.
    If Viv questions how do we know things aren't happening behind the scenes, my response is, how do she know there is? I would love to be proved wrong and discover that the McCanns are about to be brought to justice before an election. My firm bet is they won't and that's why it's important not to give up hassling and posting.
    If I'm proved wrong Viv, I will gladly donate £100 to your favourite charity.

  187. Gerry McCann statement 10.5.07.
    "On Wednesday night, 2 May 2007, apart from the deponent and his wife, he thinks that David Payne also went to his apartment to check that his children were well, not having reported to him any abnormal situation with the children. On this day, the deponent and Kate had already left the back door closed, but not locked, to allow entrance by their group colleagues to check on the children."
    On Thursday 3rd of May-"When they were having breakfast, Madeleine addressed her mother..."Why didn't you come for us when Sean and I were crying?"
    She was referring to the night above.

  188. 186 I agree, I think it was Kate and Gerry got rid of the body - or it was as Amaral says, she fell off the back of the sofa trying to see her dad talking outside

  189. Viv has an agenda here.

  190. Kate and Gerry McCann go straight to Gordon Brown in search for more powerful backers"
    Times Online September 18th 2007.
    Just a reminder of where the power lies - "Lines of communication were reopened yesterday after the appointment of the McCanns new spokesman, Clarence Mitchell.... A McCann family source said: " Mitchell still has the key phone numbers and e-mail addresses of people in power and will continue to use them. He has attended top-level briefings at No 10 every weekday for the past 2 years"

  191. I'm still smarting and puzzled at remarks at the time of the Aled Jones Mothering Sunday broadcast.
    I sent in a polite and regretful message to his site, which he accepted and I respected him for that.
    But Viv came up with something on the lines of who were we internetters to object to any of the choices of producers and broadcasters, which stumped me completely. I'm still puzzled.

  192. From an outsider point of view (Belgium): I look with disbelief at the Uk Media who's glorified the McCanns' from start to end.
    When reading Mr Amaral book, and the PJ files from mccannfiles.com, there's no doubt, or little. This is a true chance that readers from here, and observers such as Joana react on here and express the injustice that has been going on. To me, the cops who are supposed to investigate the case won"t bring anything. This is a political matter, as Mr Amaral has suggested and written very well by Mr Amaral. Nobody wants the culprits out. From the parents to the "big" ones (media, PR, politics and so on). I doubt, no matter how much I despise them for their travesty, they will be charged . It will be left a cold case, and the cold case will be re-oppened both on political and judicial grounds when it's quietter. Thats why those McCanns are laughing. They know the whole silence and grace will work for them in the next years. As for me and other friends, they are already experiencing punishment: they know she's dead by their hands and nothing else matters. just like kate. We say in french "rendez vous dans 10 ans" that's what I think. Let's meet in 10 years. (when the music is loud, and nobody listens).
    Melissa, Belgique

  193. 173 You ask me in what year there will be an arrest and on what grounds.

    I am not sure how you think I can answer that question, I have already pointed out above the files of Rebelo and the British are confidential, if I was a party to the files I may be able to answer your question but clearly I am not!

    But going on my instincts from what I can see, Gerry and Kate now look extremely desperate. I can look at their campaign and I can see that very clearly from Jan 09 Gerry confidently told us he would now be going to Portugal rather a lot. This was the start of a new campaign where Edgar had been brought in and the most spectacular and ridiculous claim was now being made. Aha, we now realise we should have been looking for Madeleine in Portugal! I do not need to tell you how ridiculous that was, given that when Maddie first went missing they ran all over the world! This new campaign was developed from them having access to PJ files against them in July 2008. I think Edgar was brought in around October 2008. He is an Irishman like Gerry and he had previously worked in Cheshire. I do not need to tell you how he got hand selected for the job either.

    This new campaign was about attacking Goncalo Amaral and the PJ in general by putting forth the notion that only Madeleine's death had been properly investigated, only the guilt of the McCanns, no proper investigation had been conducted into these supposed fantasy abductors. When we look at the PJ file we can see how ridiculous this suggestion is. We can also see that it was the British who suggested that Gerry in particular should be considered a homicide suspect and that should be thoroughly investigated. In short, Gerry is now seeking to attack the Portuguese for what the British actually wanted to be addressed.

    It was so important to get the Portuguese to deal with this case again, because as a matter of law, if Madeleine had been taken by a stranger only the Portuguese have legal jurisdiction to deal with this. Gerry has sought to engage the British government against the Portuguese in insisting they have not properly dealt with this aspect of the investigation. But very clearly they have and so have the British, Interpol and many other countries all over the world. It is a wicked suggestion to make because the reality is that the search for Madeleine has been far more intensive and expensive than any other missing child. All children are precious and there is no reason to suggest that just one should get so much more than any other. Their own "investigations" have been a farce, engaging criminals and liars.

    In any investigation of this sort, the priority with the police is the child. I think the situation is that whilst it is clear the TAPAS group are responsible for Madeleine disappearing it is not clear that she died. Trying to find her will come ahead of any criminal prosecution, that is the way it works. I would not have it any other way. Some children are found much more quickly, like lovely little Sahil. British Police co-ordinated an international sting to get him back and arrest his kidnappers. Now Manchester Police are continuing to investigate what went on along with other jurisdictions. It does give us an insight into how these things work.

    There is currently an appeal for further information about Madeleine via CEOP and I hope this will bring in further evidence that will enable the police to find Madeleine, dead or alive and to formulate appropriate charges. I think that is the situation, they do not want to put her at further risk by bringing charges at this stage, but the pressure is clearly on with the McCanns. It is not really possible for me to give you the answers you want to hear.

    I would urge everyone to make Madeleine and Justice for her their priority.

  194. 185 If my posts frighten you I suggest you ignore them.

    "Considerable intellect". People who can become doctors and carry out a scam like we are seeing here and prevent the police from finding out precisely what they did with Madeleine. People who can perpetually scam other peoples money. It has nothing to do with "emotional intelligence" of which they are entirely lacking.

    Could Karen Matthews have conducted herself in this way and have evaded arrest for three years? Clever criminals take longer to catch and far more police resources, it is often many years before the police arrest and convict them, the McCanns day will come.

  195. 184 Rebelo was certain what had gone before was correct and wanted G & K to be charged

    Can you point me to where Dr Rebelo has ever said that? I believe he has done exactly what the British wanted him to do, dealt with this case in complete confidence so that UK can charge the McCanns when sufficient evidence has been gathered. I am sure he was happy that investigations prior to that had been properly conducted but that does not alter the fact the investigation moved on into another sphere of the guilt of the McCanns.

    Investigation is about moving through all of the scenarios and finding out which one is correct. Goncalo acted perfectly properly in investigating both stranger abduction and possible homicide. I can also understand why he acted as he did when the McCanns attacked him the vindictive way that they did. For legal reasons the case against the McCanns could never have been taken in Portugal. I think you need to accept that because it is the simple truth. That is why Portuguese Judges would not order them back or allow certain evidence into the Portuguese file. It would have allowed the McCanns to know what it is!!

  196. posters 185 and 190 I agree with you both ,viv (no insult intended) but you seem to sway from day to day ,one day you support us all who are seeking justice for Maddie ,next day you are "bigging up" the mc`s ,I will take your advise and ignore your posts as my mind is on overdrive and a light is bleeping.I have an unhappy feeling that SOMEONE is on here who is not who they make out they are

  197. Just for the record I am not trying to generate anarchy, abuse anybody nor am I suggesting that posters on this site are ignorant. I actually believe many posts are intelligent, perceptive, interesting and constructive so I wouldn't dare to appear so arrogant as to dictate what others should think or say.

    Perhaps I don't make myself clear, it is difficult sometimes in such a complex case to unravel ones thoughts and to condense same into a readable format without extending it to a 2,000 page epistle. I have said before that the internet cannot solve this case only the appropriate authorities can investigate and draw their conclusions on all the evidence gleaned, I therefore have no chose but put my faith in the judicial system. O.K. the police do make mistakes, they are not super human but unfortunately these days the populace are prone to seeking revenge and thus attack the police, social services, the NHS, in fact anyone that can conveniently be blamed. Sadly the system is far from perfect but in my opinion authorities on the whole do a sterling job when up against adversity.

    Reverting back to my point, I uphold my opinion that many people are diverted from the reality of the case by the lack of developments and knowledge of facts as they may or may not be. This is not an insult, it is my opinion and I am sure that in some instances many of you agree with me! I am after all in exactly the same position as everyone else in so far as I so not have inside knowledge of proceedings, I am therefore compelled to base my thoughts on authoritative sources (hopefully with a little common sense thrown in) and not speculation.

    So please can we get back to normality! Apologies to Joanna Morais et al for causing any disruption.

  198. Anon 188,According to Kate McConn she went home early from the tapas bar on 2.5.07 because she was upset that Gerry had invited an employee from the tapas bar to join them at the table,she said she slept in the childrens room that night,so according to her own statement if she was in the apartment she would of heard Madeleine and Sean cry,so there would of been no need for Madeleine to ask her on the morning of 3.5.07 "where was you when me and sean cried for you last night"She was actually in their bedroom at the time.

  199. Viv @195,
    I have no idea if how a person speaks is connected to intellect, but Mrs Matthews appeared to be more articulate than the McCs. Perhaps if the government had given her a spin doc the outcome would have been different.


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